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  #181 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2013, 2:45 AM
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Thanks. Now I'm even more confused. Are they narrow banding the VHF or getting rid of it completely in another year? I'm not sure if PSP even knows this given the conflicting information.


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  #182 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2013, 1:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlmummert View Post
Thanks. Now I'm even more confused. Are they narrow banding the VHF or getting rid of it completely in another year? I'm not sure if PSP even knows this given the conflicting information.


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The text of the FCC document indicates to me that another STRANET deadline has been set in December, 2013 for the system to meet PSP's needs. PSP plans to maintain their old VHF until that point when, according to this, the old VHF will be decommissioned. Since they only plan to continue using the VHF for one more year, they are requesting to continue working wideband instead of spending a bunch of money they don't really have on narrowbanding a system being phased out.


From the linked document:

PSP states that its 800 MHz system is incomplete and experiences most outages
in areas where rough terrain inhibits construction of fully hardened sites. PSP has added fully
hardened 800 MHz sites over the past few years to increase interoperability, and 217 of such sites
currently provide coverage to 85 percent of Pennsylvania’s total land area. PSP wishes to retain
its legacy VHF system until the 800 MHz PA-STARNET system is fully tested. In 2011 PSP
and the Pennsylvania Office of Public Radio Services (OPRS) evaluated the feasibility of
maintaining the current VHF system on an interim basis. Because its existing VHF radio system
consists of 2,500 mobile units, 1,200 portable units, 80 dispatch systems, and 109 VHF base
stations, PSP and OPRS determined that it would be cost-prohibitive to completely narrowband
the statewide VHF system, given that PSP plans to decommission this system once the 800 MHz
PA-STARNET system is completed. Accordingly, PSP seeks a waiver to continue to use its
existing VHF system beyond the Commission’s January 1, 2013 narrowbanding deadline, until its
800 MHz system is fully operable on December 31, 2013.

Last edited by benrussellpa; 01-02-2013 at 1:41 PM..
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  #183 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2013, 1:48 PM
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Well, except for these two bits (emphasis added by me):

Quote:
Because its existing VHF radio system consists of 2,500 mobile units, 1,200 portable units, 80 dispatch systems, and 109 VHF base stations,10 PSP and OPRS determined that it would be cost-prohibitive to completely narrowband the statewide VHF system, given that PSP plans to decommission this system once the 800 MHz PA-STARNET system is completed.11
and

Quote:
Since then, PSP has improved its VHF system by purchasing some narrowband-compliant mobile radios and dispatch equipment, and has secured narrowband emission designators for its licenses. It estimates that these improvements to the VHF system will be complete by the end of 2012. PSP also included funding for narrowband-compliant equipment in its budget for Fiscal Year 2012-2013.
So they clearly have replaced some of the VHF equipment with newer narrowband capable hardware, and apparently plan to continue to do so this year. I assume they are going to retain some VHF capability in some of the areas OpenSky has coverage issues. It would be silly to buy some new VHF hardware, only to discard it within a year or two.
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  #184 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2013, 1:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benrussellpa View Post
The text of the FCC document indicates to me that another STRANET deadline has been set in December, 2013 for the system to meet PSP's needs. PSP plans to maintain their old VHF until that point when, according to this, the old VHF will be decommissioned. Since they only plan to continue using the VHF for one more year, they are requesting to continue working wideband instead of spending a bunch of money they don't really have on narrowbanding a system being phased out.


From the linked document:

PSP states that its 800 MHz system is incomplete and experiences most outages
in areas where rough terrain inhibits construction of fully hardened sites. PSP has added fully
hardened 800 MHz sites over the past few years to increase interoperability, and 217 of such sites
currently provide coverage to 85 percent of Pennsylvania’s total land area. PSP wishes to retain
its legacy VHF system until the 800 MHz PA-STARNET system is fully tested. In 2011 PSP
and the Pennsylvania Office of Public Radio Services (OPRS) evaluated the feasibility of
maintaining the current VHF system on an interim basis. Because its existing VHF radio system
consists of 2,500 mobile units, 1,200 portable units, 80 dispatch systems, and 109 VHF base
stations, PSP and OPRS determined that it would be cost-prohibitive to completely narrowband
the statewide VHF system, given that PSP plans to decommission this system once the 800 MHz
PA-STARNET system is completed. Accordingly, PSP seeks a waiver to continue to use its
existing VHF system beyond the Commission’s January 1, 2013 narrowbanding deadline, until its
800 MHz system is fully operable on December 31, 2013.
Yes that's how I read this. Basically it says:

PSP: Can we please continue to use our old VHF system for a bit longer till we get our 800MHz mess in better shape?

FCC: Ok.

Yet I've been reading other things recently about them installing new VHF radios and such. The document even mentions this vaguely. It sounds like PSP is going to keep some VHF capability long term but probably not statewide.


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  #185 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2013, 8:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chauffeur6 View Post
Well, except for these two bits (emphasis added by me):



and



So they clearly have replaced some of the VHF equipment with newer narrowband capable hardware, and apparently plan to continue to do so this year. I assume they are going to retain some VHF capability in some of the areas OpenSky has coverage issues. It would be silly to buy some new VHF hardware, only to discard it within a year or two.
Considering that they are supposed to be installing new dualband mobiles, I figured their intention was to maintain direct voice comms with other public safety agencies using these radios. It really sounds like the intention is to not keep the PSP VHF long term. But, the new equipment would allow quick and easy interop in some areas going forward.
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  #186 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2013, 9:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benrussellpa View Post
Considering that they are supposed to be installing new dualband mobiles, I figured their intention was to maintain direct voice comms with other public safety agencies using these radios. It really sounds like the intention is to not keep the PSP VHF long term. But, the new equipment would allow quick and easy interop in some areas going forward.

From what I can see on the west side of the state (talking with installers and sales folks that are on the project and looking at license changes that are popping up in the database. . . . )
Looks like quite a few high band repeaters are going to be popping up. Licenses already updated to reflect repeater operation on existing PSP channels. . . .

Also good rumors (again look at my earlier statement) that the repeaters are going to be installed or already in progress (ie base stations that are narrowbanded already are units that are drop T/R relay out, put duplexer in, reprogram for repeater operation and tie in to the interface that is the conventional to opensky gateway to bring it into the network (if needed)

Remember a lot of the PSP base infrastructure was Motorola Micor stations that were still in service. Gotta love a base station that you can put in service and leave there almost 40 years. So narrowbanding is pull it and replace it.

As usual there will be those that will doubt dispute me, those that know who I am will take it for what its worth!

And on the other side of the coin, those of us with trunking systems this way, are being contacted for our system key etc. . . . . .Agencies are still hashing those details out. . . . . (ie nobody gets the keys to the kingdom kinda thing. . . . )

So the dual band mobiles are for communication on existing and new high band systems, and 2nd band choice to match what locals are running.

As always this has been my $2.25 and YMMV!
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  #187 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2013, 2:10 PM
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I understand it’s highly unlikely that PSP turn it's VHF system off. By playing the INTEROP card, (dual band APXs mobiles) they'll rebuild the VHF infrastructure for use as back-up to the PA STAR Net debacle.
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  #188 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 12:06 AM
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Default New APX7500

OK so I have A a friend that bought a thousand or so of the old Syntorx 9000 radios and they each came in the box of the replacement radios the APX7500 features listed are for the 700/800 are TDMA. So the cars are using TDMA Slot 2 so that should be decodeable. They are also dualband with VHF being the secondary band.
Doug
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  #189 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 3:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirage View Post
OK so I have A a friend that bought a thousand or so of the old Syntorx 9000 radios and they each came in the box of the replacement radios the APX7500 features listed are for the 700/800 are TDMA. So the cars are using TDMA Slot 2 so that should be decodeable. They are also dualband with VHF being the secondary band.
Doug
Yes, the APX 7500 is capable of TDMA on a P25 Phase II trunked system, however that means very little as far as the PSP is concerned. For starters, it has absolutely nothing to do with the PA-StarNET OpenSky system. The APX dual-band radios are being installed alongside the OpenSky radios, and are going to be used for operations on the legacy PSP VHF system, as well as whatever systems the locals are using. That could be VHF, UHF or a 700/800 trunked system, depending on the area. The APX 7500's that came out of those boxes could've gone to anywhere in the commonwealth where there is a 700 or 800 MHz trunked system, including Motorola Type II 800 MHz systems, as well as 700/800 P25 Phase I or Phase II.

The only thing you'd "decode" with those radios is whatever local trunked system they'll be operating on.
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  #190 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 2:37 PM
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while in the truck earlier i heard comms on Channel G Dispatch Base/Mobiles 155.445 186.2pl

communication was information on traffic stops and regular state police dispatching, had about 2 traffic stops and dispatching to calls, i heard the base and mobile my location was scranton.

im pretty sure i caught the first part of the transmission because the dispatcher said lets try the new system and after she said that is when the regular traffic started.

im a bit confused though because that lisence shows cancelled in the database.

any info???
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  #191 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2013, 3:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandre88 View Post
while in the truck earlier i heard comms on Channel G Dispatch Base/Mobiles 155.445 186.2pl im a bit confused though because that lisence shows cancelled in the database.
They took out a lot of new licenses for what some have indicated is a new Back-up system. Many of them were combined with a DCNR license where they often show VHF Repeaters. Here's one for Dunmore: KXH342 Here's one that has repeaters on 155.5800, the older(15-20 yrs ago) freq for your area. WQLN816 Notice that this is a DCNR license FRN 0003178472
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  #192 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2013, 10:52 AM
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Thumbs down the system

You know whats sad. Is If PSP officials asked some technical folks in 2000 what would work best it woul;d be VHF repeaters hands down! What has ballooned into a 300 million plus project could have been outfitted with MDT's for about 20 million.
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  #193 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2013, 3:37 AM
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From what I've seen locally and I'm guessing across the state, the patrol cars have Motorola APX 7500 VHF/UHF radios. I believe statewide they are still operating Wide-Band until all the base radios and mobiles have been upgraded. The cars and barracks do a VHF check on Mobile to Mobile for each car coming on at shift change and some barracks cars use TAC1 for comms between cars so they don't broadcast back to the barracks non-emergency radio traffic.

A lot of counties have VHF or UHF police bands that each Troop's cars are programmed with for interoperability. Since PSP will not allow 911 Centers access to their direct barrack's talkgroup they need to be able to switch to that region's "general" channel so the 911 Center can patch the 800 OpenSky system with the local PD frequencies and because once outside the cars the troopers only have OpenSky portables and there isn't a repeater/cross patch ability between the OpenSky radio and the APX7500 radios.
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  #194 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2013, 7:56 AM
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thanks for the reply captclint, BTW the communications heard from the dispatch center to the mobile which was 20 miles from me was great! the dispatch center for the R cars isnt nothing but 5 miles from me but still sounded outstanding and they 100% have the apx's installed in these cars and the motor carrier trucks, they even run the controlable mic from the apx. usually lit in green. im still not sure as to why the R barracks cars run a 1/4 wave UHF with the new trunk mounted 5/8 VHF, along with the opensky antenna and the gps/MDT antenna, its also mounted in a strange spot which makes me think it was an after thought, its mounted in the rear corner of the roof on the cars.

Would love to get a channel list from there apx's from each barrack!
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  #195 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2013, 8:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandre88 View Post
Would love to get a channel list from there apx's from each barrack!
You may remember, back in the "OLD" days (not too long after they went from low band to VHF), a few troopers did actually print out their list for friends, and it was published on one or more forums.
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  #196 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2013, 9:55 AM
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Talking

wonder what my chances would be next time im around and i see a trooper at the burger king or dunkin in dunmore if he could scroll through that for me real quick.
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  #197 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2013, 6:44 PM
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Isn't UHF and higher frequencies more suited for the city. So why would the state continue to use these frequencies when the terrain is better handled by VHF.
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:17 AM
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@dbrass8410 - I'm not too sure they use the UHF system for their own use as much as they have the UHF side for interoperability for the counties they assist, like Blair and Bedford's systems.
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Old 02-17-2013, 8:46 AM
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Just curious, has anyone heard how the system works for PennDot ? I haven't seen any mention of that.
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Old 02-18-2013, 1:41 AM
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As far as I know PennDOT only has the OpenSky system to use and it seems to be working ok
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