Delaware County Narrowbanding

[Septa3371CSX1]

Originally Posted by jjimenez01

I spoke with Stevie G and he says they are moving forward with their narrowband project. Because so many of the police channels have already been converted and the numerous Quantars already purchased and delivered they will proceed with their orignial roll out plan. Stevie also made mention they have observed and recorded improvements in the coverage of numerous channels. Not only is the aging GE fleet being replaced but additional transmitters and receivers are being added.

The county paid for an in depth analysis that showed many of the fire channels were sub standard in their coverage, way below 95%. And I mean way below. The narrowbanding effectively allowed them to bump up the coverage in areas plagued by poor talk in and talk out. Channels like Fire 4 will go from 90% to 97% coverage after the new hardware and recommendations are put in place.

JJ

Great news there. I know I have trouble picking up Sector 4 in the area I work (Folcroft Industrial Park) but no problem with M4. Be nice to be able to have good portable coverage in all areas of the county. I've also noticed I'm able to bring in the T-band dispatch channel (508.2375) on my Pro 2055 better than the low band channel thus I was able to make that the priority channel on that scanner. Still can't pick it up good here on my portables though - any idea if they will put this channel on more towers?

[jjimenez01]

Joe,
Unfortunately the additional transmitter being added for Fire 4 is going at the WPLY tower in Newtown Square. I doubt it will help your area of Delco. The study actually suggested removing components of Fire 4 from the Twin Oaks site on Market St (Rt . 452).

The good news is the county is keeping the 500MHz dispatch transmitter and has recently increased its output power. It was 10W, was recently increased to 30W and will be raised to 50W after a trial period at the 30W level. There are some propagation issues with that frequency interfereing with stations in Ocean County , NJ. I'm confident after all the new Quantars are installed and tuned for peak performance the county PD and Fire channels will have greater coverage than before. Through prop studies and real world testing, shifting the 500MHz channels to NB operation caused a 3db reduction in talk in performance. Most notably on portables. Additional receivers in various locations throughout Delco has fixed that problem.

JJ

[ocguard]

I know this will put the sour-milk face on some people, but I'll pose the question. Why hasn't Delaware County begun the transition pathway to a trunked system of some sort? It seems there are ample existing frequency pairs to accommodate this. The county is extremely urban/suburban. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Sure, the cost is high, but for how much longer will the capacity/coverage of the conventional repeaters be sustainable?

[CommJunkie]

They paid someone to tell them the system was subpar? Coulda just asked any end user. (SARCASM!)

If they already have the equipment, it makes too much sense to go ahead and narrowband. The biggest challenge operationswise, is getting all of the portables and mobiles programmed at about the same time so everyone is on the same page.

We don't know what's going to happen in the next ten years as far as T-Band goes. They could end up going back on their plan and keeping the T-Band allocations the way they are. I suppose if they don't, Delco will end up on some kind of 700mhz system sooner rather than later. But only time will tell.

[Septa3371CSX1]

Originally Posted by jjimenez01

Joe,
Unfortunately the additional transmitter being added for Fire 4 is going at the WPLY tower in Newtown Square. I doubt it will help your area of Delco. The study actually suggested removing components of Fire 4 from the Twin Oaks site on Market St (Rt . 452).

The good news is the county is keeping the 500MHz dispatch transmitter and has recently increased its output power. It was 10W, was recently increased to 30W and will be raised to 50W after a trial period at the 30W level. There are some propagation issues with that frequency interfereing with stations in Ocean County , NJ. I'm confident after all the new Quantars are installed and tuned for peak performance the county PD and Fire channels will have greater coverage than before. Through prop studies and real world testing, shifting the 500MHz channels to NB operation caused a 3db reduction in talk in performance. Most notably on portables. Additional receivers in various locations throughout Delco has fixed that problem.

JJ

I was referring to Sector 4 Police not Fire 4. It actually does make sense to remove Fire 4 from the Twin Oaks Tower since it isn't near the north central part of the county. I know Fire 4 used to not come in very clear where I live until Haverford moved onto that channel. The audio quality on Sector and Mutual 6 has also improved as of late.

[n3obl]

the waiver for the narrowbanding t-band is because congress passed a law to force public safety to vacate t-band in approx 10 years.

[CommJunkie]

Has anything been narrowbanded yet?

[captaincab]

to my knowledge all delcom police channels have been and the process for fireboard channels should begin soon

[jjimenez01]

Delaware County has officially released they will NOT be narrowbanding any of the Fire and EMS channels. Police channels will be reverted back to wideband due to loss of coverage and interference issues. Any fire companies who narrowbanded their equipment will be asked to revert back to wideband immediately. Letters are going out today.

JJ

[phillydjdan]

Very interesting, JJ, thanks for the info!

[soberbyker]

Not completely understanding narrowbanding, will the frequencies remain the same 500 numbers?

[Septa3371CSX1]

Originally Posted by soberbyker

Not completely understanding narrowbanding, will the frequencies remain the same 500 numbers?

Yes they will. Narrow banding means operating at 12.5 or 6.25 kHz spacing between frequencies instead of 25.0 kHz.

[soberbyker]

Originally Posted by Septa3371CSX1

Yes they will. Narrow banding means operating at 12.5 or 6.25 kHz spacing between frequencies instead of 25.0 kHz.

Ok, thank you.

I think I understand why the switch, to make room for more frequencies to use, but will going back to the larger spacing, improve the coverage area my scanner will pick up?

I live in a row home in the Lansdowne section of Upper Darby, for DELCO I pick up sectors 6 and 4 perfectly. I only get a little of sector 5 and 7 and once in a great while a sector 2 car.

I have my Pro-197 on my desk hooked up to a mobile antenna out side a second floor window on the sill. This room is facing east. Because it's facing east is why I don't get much west coverage I suppose. Might that improve with them reverting back to wideband?

It's odd that I can pick up a NJSP car on the AC expressway many many miles away but can't pick-up Springfield or Ridley only a few miles away.

[saber2k5]

Delco should have listened to my post from April 12...Oh well--not the first time I made a suggestion that they ignored. In the end, we all will have improved reception, esp. considering the new repeater sites added.

[captaincab]

here is a copy of the letter fireboard sent to all departments about the decision to not narrowband take note they talk about the upcoming 700mhz system at the end of the letter

December 10, 2012



To all Fire & EMS Chiefs & Officers:



This notice is to advise you that all fire and medical radio frequencies will not be narrow banded at this time, in contrast to what has been previously scheduled. However, the VHF paging frequency, which was still mandated for narrow banding, has been completed. The Apollo pagers are fully operational.



In August of this year everyone was advised that your radio frequencies would be narrow banded before January 1, 2013, but not to make any changes until notified by Steve Giancristoforo from this office. If you have already narrow banded any of your radios please contact your radio vendor to have those radios changed back to wide band (25 kHz) immediately.



However, several months ago the FCC reversed their mandate that all licenses in the 470-512 MHz band be narrow banded (from 25 kHz to 12.5 kHz) by January 1, 2013. This was done following the recently enacted “Middle Class Tax Relief and Job Creation Act of 2012” which states, “Not later than nine years after the date of enactment, the commission shall relocate the spectrum in the 470-512 MHz band (“T-band”) and begin a system of competitive bidding of the spectrum.” The Act also provides that “relocation of public safety entities from the “T-band spectrum” (to the 700 MHz band) shall be completed no later than two years after completion of the system of competitive bidding.



Following the above change Ed Truitt received a letter from T. Fred Short, the Delaware County Engineer/Consultant, who has been working on the narrow banding of our public safety frequencies with Steve Giancristoforo. The final statement in his letter reads, “In my opinion, and in light of the fact that the Police and Fire communities operate independently, we should leave the fire systems on wide band.” His opinion was further strengthened by the fact that the fire companies in the county operate on may different frequencies by the nature of their mutual aid responses, RIT responses, and further complicated by the fact that many fire companies have not yet replaced their outdated mobile and/or portable radios.



Following the letter from Mr. Short, Ed Truitt requested the opinion of the Emergency Services Advisory Committee (ESAC) regarding the issue of narrow banding the fire and medical frequencies. The ESAC Chairman Thomas Murray called a special meeting of the committee on December 5. At the conclusion of the meeting the ESAC instructed Chairman Murray to advise Mr. Truitt that they agreed that although the radio infrastructure throughout the county has already been upgraded, the fire and medical frequencies should be left on wide band at this time. In addition, the committee stressed that the county should begin now to plan for the migration to the 700 MHz radio system. This will allow us to position ourselves to be ready when the private sector starts inquiring about our current frequencies.



We will keep you informed as things progress in this area of emergency communications. Thank you for your understanding and patience over the past two years concerning this issue.



Sincerely,





John F. Gallagher

Deputy Director

[soberbyker]

So, in summary, police 500 band is not going wide, but will be going to 700, when?

[captaincab]

i dont think they have a set date when i hear more ill be sure to post it.

[rgchristy]

I'm getting NF on the display of my 800. Is it just because the mode is programmed to NFM or are they really narrowbanded? Also, if they are narrowbanded, will setting the mode to AUTO have the display accurately show if they are narrowbanded or not(NF vs FM)?

Thanks,

Rich C

[mlmummert]

Originally Posted by rgchristy

I'm getting NF on the display of my 800. Is it just because the mode is programmed to NFM or are they really narrowbanded? Also, if they are narrowbanded, will setting the mode to AUTO have the display accurately show if they are narrowbanded or not(NF vs FM)?

Thanks,

Rich C

The NFM just means the scanner is set for narrow. The AUTO doesn't detect whether the transmission is narrow or not. It just sets the scanner for narrow for certain frequencies and standard for others depending on what they are.

Personally I've just been setting everything for FM unless I know it's NFM. It will work on FM even if the transmission is narrow.

[mlmummert]

Also are the Delco police channels narrow banded?