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  #281 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 5:33 PM
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Are all of the radios enabled for encryption? I was under the impression that the encryption modules are rather expensive and only the radios assigned to sensitive units were encrypted.
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Old 01-21-2013, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mikedel83 View Post
If you post sensitive talkgroups on here you are endangering officer's lives. Not a smart move in my opinion! Knowledge is free but it can be dangerous in the wrong person's hands. Some people know HOW to build bombs, they just choose not to. Then there are those who know HOW to put Narcotics on scanners but opt out of it. This very issue has come many of times. I flat out refuse to put Strike Force, Vice, etc.. on anyone's radio if they are not a police officer.
As Joe stated, aren't these radios strapped encrypted where you can't turn off the encryption even if the officer wanted too? Are there transmissions in the clear coming across these talkgroups?
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  #283 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 6:08 PM
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Ok, I'm going to play the devil's advocate. Yes, those sensitive TGs should NOT be publicized, just because of their nature. HOWEVER, anyone with a trunk-tracking scanner can simply program a wildcard or do an ID search and jot down the TG numbers that it lands on. After awhile, anyone would get the general idea of what that channel is used for. And no, some of those TGs are NOT strapped for encryption, and some users do come through in the clear. Does that mean you should listen? Maybe. Does that mean 100 or so hobbyists haven't been listening to those channels since the old system went on air way back when? You'd be an idiot to think so! If the police think that this database is the sole source and the only possible way for listening in to that traffic, then I believe another year of kindergarten is in order for all of them. Should the sensitive PD TGs be deleted? YES. Is it probably too late? Maybe. But I can guarantee you this: If a drug dealer was THAT interested in what the cops were doing, they would have known all of this info back in the 90's when the old system was put in service. BUT, is there anything wrong with a few hobbyists sharing info like this among themselves privately? My opinion is no. I am calling for the admins to remove those TGs, whether they do it or not remains to be seen. Lindsay will be contacted, and I can assure you he's probably already received several e-mails from several people. I will be one of them as soon as this message is posted.
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  #284 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by phillydjdan View Post
Ok, I'm going to play the devil's advocate. Yes, those sensitive TGs should NOT be publicized, just because of their nature. HOWEVER, anyone with a trunk-tracking scanner can simply program a wildcard or do an ID search and jot down the TG numbers that it lands on. After awhile, anyone would get the general idea of what that channel is used for. And no, some of those TGs are NOT strapped for encryption, and some users do come through in the clear. Does that mean you should listen? Maybe. Does that mean 100 or so hobbyists haven't been listening to those channels since the old system went on air way back when? You'd be an idiot to think so! If the police think that this database is the sole source and the only possible way for listening in to that traffic, then I believe another year of kindergarten is in order for all of them. Should the sensitive PD TGs be deleted? YES. Is it probably too late? Maybe. But I can guarantee you this: If a drug dealer was THAT interested in what the cops were doing, they would have known all of this info back in the 90's when the old system was put in service. BUT, is there anything wrong with a few hobbyists sharing info like this among themselves privately? My opinion is no. I am calling for the admins to remove those TGs, whether they do it or not remains to be seen. Lindsay will be contacted, and I can assure you he's probably already received several e-mails from several people. I will be one of them as soon as this message is posted.
Moreover, some people choose to program in these encrypted talk groups and lock them out from the get-go to avoid getting "stuck" on them during a wild card scan, as GRE scanners do not automatically skip encrypted calls during scanning.
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  #285 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 7:48 PM
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The issue here is perception and not common sense. Sure anyone can scan the system using a wild card and receive all of the talkgroups in the clear. But now these sensitive talkgroups are published in the public domain are available to anyone with a computer. When a few of the sensitive talkgroups were published last week in the database, it attracted the attention of PPD Intelligence bureau. Not that all of the talkgroups are in the database, I am sure they are even more angry.
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  #286 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 8:01 PM
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Sounds like they need something better to do with their time, like actually fight some crime in this city for a change. They sit here watching these forums, yet all these illegal guns are still floating around in the hands of criminals... Kinda reminds me of the stories I've been seeing in the news about the cops harassing folks that are recording them with smartphones. Don't whack people over the head with your nightstick and that video won't matter to anyone, will it? The bottom line, Mr Intelligence Officer, is that those TGs were never really "secret", although they should not have been listed on this site. Just sayin...
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  #287 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 8:13 PM
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I actually did a RR import from the ARC-250 software for a BCD-796D and it listed the ENTIRE talkgroup info. Homicide, Dignitary, Strikeforce, DA Narcotics, all kinds of stuff that I didn't see when I did it thru Win500
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  #288 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 8:21 PM
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[QUOTE=Highpockets;1899276

Our town lost out to the Line Officers, the Chief even put an article in the paper saying they wouldn't encrypt the day to day ops and looks like he lost or at least gave in, [/QUOTE]

Steve, I can now see this same thing happen in Philadelphia. Currently, the Police commissioner is a community relations cop. He is for the public having access to routine dispatch in order to help solve crimes. That's a great thing - I wish more chiefs were like this. However, I do know that several of his line do not feel that way. There are a few that want to encrypt everything, including routine dispatch. Who's to say these line officers, after this incident, notify him of this and they convince him to encrypt it all?
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  #289 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 8:33 PM
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Well, they're gonna do what they're gonna do. I say they are dumb to shut everyone out, if they do. But if they do, they'll quickly realize their mistake when this city jumps to the top of the most-dangerous list... I'm planning on moving out of the city soon anyway... Maybe I'll go to Delco where they still use analog conventional lol...
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  #290 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 8:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcardani View Post
Steve, I can now see this same thing happen in Philadelphia. Currently, the Police commissioner is a community relations cop. He is for the public having access to routine dispatch in order to help solve crimes. That's a great thing - I wish more chiefs were like this. However, I do know that several of his line do not feel that way. There are a few that want to encrypt everything, including routine dispatch. Who's to say these line officers, after this incident, notify him of this and they convince him to encrypt it all?
This subject has been beaten to death on RR, for one I don't see encrypting regular police activity, routine stuff, etc. but, Vice, SWAT and stuff that is very sensitive, I see the PD's argument. As a tax payer and paying for their salary and equipment I see the peoples argument.

I for one have given donations to my local PBA for years, when they encrypted I sent the donation card with no donation and a note explaining why I will no longer give, I give now to the next town over that doesn't encrypt, this way I still feel like I'm giving but to a PD that isn't locking out the public. I believe in police safety, but I'd like to see real proof that their safety is in danger, I have read news reports of subjects caught with a scanner or radio, but I'd like to know the real percentage of how often that happens. I have also read where people with scanners have helped police to catch subjects, so, the debate goes on.

Like I said Joe, I hope you can accomplish something with the Philly PD.
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  #291 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 8:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcardani View Post
I just looked over at the database and found all of the special unit talkgroups posted there. Well, it was only a matter of time.

The PPD already questioned a police officer friend of mine yesterday shortly after several of the sensitive groups were first posted in the database. There are commanders there who want all the police talkgroups encrypted, and this is the reason why. This only give them more reason to do so.

I am powerless to request these be removed, due to the policy of Radio Reference, but people should think things out before sending this information. Furthermore, since the talkgroups are strapped encrypted, I wonder if these talkgroups have been verified to be accurate?

I am not looking for an argument here but I just want to state the facts as I know it.

respectfully,

Joe

I and many others agree,
as a nod to the brass and
keeping with the standing
policy regarding the PPD
should continue.

Thanks Joe for all youve
done past and present.

Again,Admins..Please
Omit the entries from the DB
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  #292 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 9:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillydjdan View Post
Ok, I'm going to play the devil's advocate. Yes, those sensitive TGs should NOT be publicized, just because of their nature. HOWEVER, anyone with a trunk-tracking scanner can simply program a wildcard or do an ID search and jot down the TG numbers that it lands on. .
Agreed,However,,a crook that wants the data in a flash to pull a half a$$ heist will not take the time to scan,,learn,,match call signs ect...they will look,,if there theyll get happy and if not there they will never know they exist..LOL..keeping them a lil behind.
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  #293 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 9:33 PM
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I don't know about you, but I were planning a heist, I'd want the DISTRICT channel that the flash was gonna be put out on! lol I don't know. I've never seen a prostitute anywhere ever get caught with a scanner. I've never really heard of any corner drug dealers getting caught with one. They're just not smart enough to use them or don't want to spend the money on one would be my guess. I've only heard of a few burglars being nailed with them, but they (if they know what they're doing) would only need to listen to the routine dispatch channels anyway. But I digress...

On another note, and switching gears slightly, I've been hearing test counts and now some chatter by municipal dispatch on the I-Tac and 8-Tac channels. I just heard them chatting on 8-Tac 4 (they called it 8-Tac 94). Interesting to see these channels finally get a little activity. I have an analog 800 MHz radio here just scanning the interop and analog fireground channels here in the city, and it remains dead silent 99.9% of the time...
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  #294 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 9:44 PM
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Ha,Nice to see them clearing the dust off the INTEROP channels..
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  #295 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 9:56 PM
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Yeah, that's what I thought. They mentioned turning a base station on the 8th floor off and back on, perhaps it was radio techs dealing with some sort of radio issue. Is Police HQ 8 floors? I know Fire HQ isn't.

Are there any rules regarding the use of those channels? More specifically, could the city have had the PFD units use those channels for fireground ops during the switchover instead of the simplex analog channels, or would that have not been allowed since they are supposed to be for "interops"?
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  #296 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 10:01 PM
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not sure,,
dont kniow if there is an activation protocol for the use of the NIFOG/INTEROP channels for
as needed local use..
possibly why they have their own 800's for analog & conv p25 simplex use.
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  #297 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 10:07 PM
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Well, I figure why not, since around here they sit dormant any other time. That's smart use of spectrum, but, then again, the FCC wouldn't know anything about that lol...
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocguard View Post
Moreover, some people choose to program in these encrypted talk groups and lock them out from the get-go to avoid getting "stuck" on them during a wild card scan, as GRE scanners do not automatically skip encrypted calls during scanning.
I've had to do exactly that, wildcard getting stuck on an annoying scrambled voice, programmed it in (since it was listed here on RR and wouldn't have known how otherwise) and locked it out via WIN500 so I didn't lock out all wildcards.

On another note, the old system, will Phila give up those frequencies now or use them for something in the future?
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  #299 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2013, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by phillydjdan View Post
Well, I figure why not, since around here they sit dormant any other time. That's smart use of spectrum, but, then again, the FCC wouldn't know anything about that lol...
its such a double edged sword on that one,,i hope they go live,but if they go live it means some major incident has probably occurred..and being of the mind set -Uneventful is quiet,,and quiet is good!- means i hope to Never hear them go hot..

stuck in a paradigm i guess..
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:40 PM
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...... I have an analog 800 MHz radio here just scanning the interop and analog fireground channels here in the city, and it remains dead silent 99.9% of the time...
Were the analog FG frequencies changed?
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