Help with Hamlin Fire & Rescue - Salem, PA

[LIScanner101]

I live in New York but when I visit the in-laws in Lake Ariel PA I was considering scanning the local police & fire.

On Hamlin Highway in Salem PA (a few miles away from Lake Ariel) there is a fire station called Hamlin Rescue. Try as I may, I cannot get their frequencies. Using the FCC advanced search I've plugged-in the exact coordinates of this firehouse and did a radius search of up to 5 miles - nothing about this FD comes up. There is an antenna on the roof so I know they have a radio...!

Am I doing something wrong?

[W8RMH]

From the RadioReference database.

Wayne County
Fire / EMS
All fire departments are dispatched from the Wayne County 911 Center. Some fire departments have fireground channels and those departments will be listed under the correct municipality. Most departments will be utiliziing the county plan located in this section. County 1&2 are dispatch/command channels, and Fire 1&2 are fireground channels.

Frequency License Type Tone Alpha Tag Description Mode Tag
151.41500 WQGD279 BM 167.9 PL WayneFD Disp County 1 / Dispatch FMN Fire Dispatch
155.67750 WQGD279 BM 167.9 PL Wayne FD 2 County 2 / Command FMN Fire-Tac
155.91750 WQGD279 M 167.9 PL Wayne FG 3 Fireground 3 FMN Fire-Tac
156.03750 WQGD279 M 167.9 PL Wayne FG 4 Fireground 4 FMN Fire-Tac
153.91250 WQKK534 M 167.9 PL Wayne FG 5 Fireground 5 FMN Fire-Tac
155.13750 WQKK534 M 167.9 PL Wayne FG 6 Fireground 6 FMN Fire-Tac

[popnokick]

In addition to using Wayne Co channels, Hamlin Fire & Rescue also use county EMS on 155.310 and their own license on 154.430.

[LIScanner101]

Originally Posted by W8RMH

From the RadioReference database.

Wayne County
Fire / EMS
All fire departments are dispatched from the Wayne County 911 Center. Some fire departments have fireground channels and those departments will be listed under the correct municipality. Most departments will be utiliziing the county plan located in this section. County 1&2 are dispatch/command channels, and Fire 1&2 are fireground channels.

Frequency License Type Tone Alpha Tag Description Mode Tag
151.41500 WQGD279 BM 167.9 PL WayneFD Disp County 1 / Dispatch FMN Fire Dispatch
155.67750 WQGD279 BM 167.9 PL Wayne FD 2 County 2 / Command FMN Fire-Tac
155.91750 WQGD279 M 167.9 PL Wayne FG 3 Fireground 3 FMN Fire-Tac
156.03750 WQGD279 M 167.9 PL Wayne FG 4 Fireground 4 FMN Fire-Tac
153.91250 WQKK534 M 167.9 PL Wayne FG 5 Fireground 5 FMN Fire-Tac
155.13750 WQKK534 M 167.9 PL Wayne FG 6 Fireground 6 FMN Fire-Tac

Thanks. I did see that section but I was curious as to why there was nothing found in the radius search. I always thought that a firehouse transmitter would show up on that search even if the dispatch took place in another location. Thanks again for helping me out!

[LIScanner101]

Originally Posted by popnokick

In addition to using Wayne Co channels, Hamlin Fire & Rescue also use county EMS on 155.310 and their own license on 154.430.

Thanks! Funny thing though, I just did an exact frequency search for 154.43 in Wayne County. Guess what? The firehouse comes up. Only thing is, it's licensed as "HAMILIN" (spelled incorrectly). That's why I couldn't find it... Oh well.

[LIScanner101]

I just got the LAT LONG coordindates for Hamlin Fire & Rescue off the FCC site and plugged them into Google Earth. Why does the resultant point wind up a few miles away from the known location?

[captclint]

Originally Posted by LIScanner101

I just got the LAT LONG coordindates for Hamling Fire & Rescue off the FCC site and plugged them into Google Earth. Why does the resultant point wind up a few miles away from the known location?

Not sure what you used for lon/lat, but it looks like they have 2 locations.
WPOY721 (HAMILIN FIRE & RESCUE CO INC) FCC Callsign Details

[LIScanner101]

Originally Posted by captclint

Not sure what you used for lon/lat, but it looks like they have 2 locations.
WPOY721 (HAMILIN FIRE & RESCUE CO INC) FCC Callsign Details

Yes, I understand that, but both locations that pop up on the map show them in the middle of the woods. So, something must be wrong.

As a test, I looked up "HICKSVILLE FIRE DEPT" in Hickville NY. The coordinates given for the main station are about a mile away from the actual FD building, whether you take the location directly from the FCC map, or plug in the provided coordinates and use Google Earth - they both agree with each other, but they're both off quite a bit.

[captclint]

Originally Posted by LIScanner101

Yes, I understand that, but both locations that pop up on the map show them in the middle of the woods. So, something must be wrong.

In many cases, the antenna location is not near the physical building. It is selected to for elevation and coverage area. They usually have a dedicated land line to the antenna/transmitter site that activates the transmitter.

[LIScanner101]

Originally Posted by captclint

In many cases, the antenna location is not near the physical building. It is selected to for elevation and coverage area.

Agreed, but I do know for a certain fact that there are no antennas at all at the FCC's coordinates for Hicksville FD. On the roof of the main firehouse is what I could only refer to as a major antenna farm - all kinds of folded dipoles, Yagis, ground planes etc. It's very obvious that the signals originate from there. But according to the FCC coordinates the transmitter location is on the top of a building a mile or so away, that I know has NO antennas on it. Very odd.....

Who actually gives the coordinates to the FCC? The licensee, or does the FCC do their own lat-lon survey? I would imagine the latter but if the former that might explain this weird situation.

[captclint]

Originally Posted by LIScanner101

Who actually gives the coordinates to the FCC? The licensee, or does the FCC do their own lat-lon survey? I would imagine the latter but if the former that might explain this weird situation.

The licensing registrar, not the agency, provides the data to the FCC. I have seen where they are off by an entire county. Errors on license applications are more prevalent than anyone would guess.

[LIScanner101]

Originally Posted by captclint

The licensing registrar, not the agency, provides the data to the FCC. I have seen where they are off by an entire county. Errors on license applications are more prevalent than anyone would guess.

a-HA!

THAT explains it!!

OK, at least I know I'm not going crazy!

Thanks for clearing this up. Well, I guess that pretty much makes the FCC's lat-lon locations useless then. I mean, I know it puts you "close" but in this day and age one would expect them to be dead on - but if they are given garbage data you can't really blame them.

[LIScanner101]

Interesting reply I got from the FCC regarding wrong coordinates:

"The coordinates listed on the license were supplied to the Commission by the applicant. The burden does fall on the applicant to make sure their information is correct. Should corrections need to be made, the applicant would need to submit their changes through a frequency coordinator."

I am surprised that they are not more concerned about it - seems like a pretty blah response to me.

[Chauffeur6]

There are literally millions of stations licensed with the FCC. What do you expect them to do, survey them all? In the majority of cases where the coordinates are incorrect, they're usually off by under a mile. It's pretty rare to find errors of more than a few miles. Even a 2-3 mile error is not going to greatly skew the footprint of a transmitter enough to cause havoc. A 100 watt VHF station is going to propagate for tens of miles, so having the geodata off by a few thousand feet is largely meaningless.

As long as the correct physical address of the transmitter or control station is listed on the license, that's what the FCC cares most about.

[LIScanner101]

Originally Posted by Chauffeur6

There are literally millions of stations licensed with the FCC. What do you expect them to do, survey them all? In the majority of cases where the coordinates are incorrect, they're usually off by under a mile. It's pretty rare to find errors of more than a few miles. Even a 2-3 mile error is not going to greatly skew the footprint of a transmitter enough to cause havoc. A 100 watt VHF station is going to propagate for tens of miles, so having the geodata off by a few thousand feet is largely meaningless.

As long as the correct physical address of the transmitter or control station is listed on the license, that's what the FCC cares most about.

OK, OK, I got it, I thought they were also concerned with the lat-lon. I stand corrected and a little berated. Thank you.

[Chauffeur6]

Sorry, the "What do you expect them to do, survey them all?" comment was unnecessary. I must've been in a mood that day.

[LIScanner101]

No problem.