Election 2012

[Highpockets]

Originally Posted by zz0468

You joke, but I'm serious. How can we expect Congress to function, when functioning is based on compromise and communication, and the rest of the nation has lowered itself to sophomoric name calling?

WE are the cause of all our problems, more so than Congress or whatever President we happen to have at the moment, and it's not going to get better unless debate over the problems occurs at a more mature and practical level.

American morals and values are deteriorating, and while the religious right blames it on the left and on a lack of religious lifestyles. I'd like to remind you that you're the one doing the sophomoric name calling, not me.

So, I see you as part of the problem, not part of any solution.

Part of obamas "Hope and Change" was to bring us all together. I feel he has made it worse, his At General still has done nothing about the Philly voting harassment case. Also the press doesn't help, how can we as a people be happy when the press has failed in doing thier job reporting fair and honest all around. Most of us here say replace the leaders of the House and Senate, but somehow they keep getting elected. How do you get the nuts in CA to vote Nancy Pelosi out, or the other leaders in the states they represent? How can the people in CA vote for her after she makes comments like "You have to pass the law before you learn what's in it" WTF... maybe they should put down the weed!

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by Highpockets

Part of obamas "Hope and Change" was to bring us all together. I feel he has made it worse, his At General still has done nothing about the Philly voting harassment case.

And I'm of the opinion that he hasn't actively made things worse. His major shortcoming is that he's incapable of bringing us together, something Romney also lacks. The problem with both is that this is what the country needs more than anything else. We're all so divided, and that division is causing both sides to introduce highly polarized candidates, none of whom are capable of bridging that gap.

As for the Philly case, if that was the root of all the problems, then Obama should be a shoe-in for reelection.

Originally Posted by Highpockets

Also the press doesn't help, how can we as a people be happy when the press has failed in doing thier job reporting fair and honest all around.

Indeed. But who is it you're referring to as "press"? Radio and TV talk-show hosts and political commentators? I keep trying to tell you guys, that's not "the press". That's entertainment. You find more balanced news off the beaten path, not on the most popular "news" programming, like N1RGR is so fond of referring to. FOX isn't going to tell you all the REAL reasons to dislike Obama or Romney or whoever. They're only telling you the sensational ones, and many on both sides are not properly vetted as fact. This is why the birther issue has been so prevalent an argument for so long. People aren't listening to real news. They're listening to entertainers calling themselves news.

Originally Posted by Highpockets

Most of us here say replace the leaders of the House and Senate, but somehow they keep getting elected. How do you get the nuts in CA to vote Nancy Pelosi out, or the other leaders in the states they represent?

Good question. I don't know. I've never voted for Pelosi, and I don't know anyone who has.

Originally Posted by Highpockets

How can the people in CA vote for her after she makes comments like "You have to pass the law before you learn what's in it" WTF... maybe they should put down the weed!

I suppose the perception has been that whoever she's been running against must be even worse. Sounds just like the Presidential race.

[Highpockets]

Originally Posted by zz0468

And I'm of the opinion that he hasn't actively made things worse. His major shortcoming is that he's incapable of bringing us together, something Romney also lacks. The problem with both is that this is what the country needs more than anything else. We're all so divided, and that division is causing both sides to introduce highly polarized candidates, none of whom are capable of bridging that gap.

As for the Philly case, if that was the root of all the problems, then Obama should be a shoe-in for reelection.

Indeed. But who is it you're referring to as "press"? Radio and TV talk-show hosts and political commentators? I keep trying to tell you guys, that's not "the press". That's entertainment. You find more balanced news off the beaten path, not on the most popular "news" programming, like N1RGR is so fond of referring to. FOX isn't going to tell you all the REAL reasons to dislike Obama or Romney or whoever. They're only telling you the sensational ones, and many on both sides are not properly vetted as fact. This is why the birther issue has been so prevalent an argument for so long. People aren't listening to real news. They're listening to entertainers calling themselves news.

Good question. I don't know. I've never voted for Pelosi, and I don't know anyone who has.

I suppose the perception has been that whoever she's been running against must be even worse. Sounds just like the Presidential race.

It doesn't bother you that two black people dressed all in black with clubs in their hands were standing outside a voting place intimidating people, and nothing is done about it? That makes me question the president and his At General.

When it comes to the Press, all of it, when I was younger we all sat around the TV and watched the news, that's when reporters went out on the road and did their job, today they sit behind a desk and write what ever they feel like, not caring about the truth.

Most of the leaders in the House and Senate have been there to long, until they are replaced it will remain the same. Also a good leader who is in the White House most of the time might help also.

We'll know in a month in which direction this country will go.

[N1RGR]

Originally Posted by Highpockets

It doesn't bother you that two black people dressed all in black with clubs in their hands were standing outside a voting place intimidating people, and nothing is done about it? That makes me question the president and his At General.

That was a good example of where the root of partisan division resided during the last four years. Another good example of the division was demonstrated during the "Health Care" debates. The Dems totally bypassed the Republicans and the the American people for that matter and rammed the unpopular bill right down our throats! Remember the town hall meetings when all those arrogant and disrespectful Democrat representatives were talking down to and yelling at their constituents. Who the hell did they think they were? That action alone helped fuel the Tea Party movement! And who was behind the cause of that division,none other than the Divider And Chief himself President Obama! Oh and lets not forget Harry "Pinocchio" Reid and Nancy Pelosi!

[N1RGR]

Originally Posted by zz0468

And I'm of the opinion that he hasn't actively made things worse. His major shortcoming is that he's incapable of bringing us together, something Romney also lacks.

You seriously dont think Obama has made the divide worse? There is NOT a bipartisan bone in the mans body! Was you out of the country or something during the whole Health Care debates. As I stated in the above post,the Republicans were totally shut out of the whole process and the American people who opposed the bill were ridiculed and insulted by their representatives? You don't think that made things worse???

[N1RGR]

Originally Posted by zz0468

You joke, but I'm serious. How can we expect Congress to function, when functioning is based on compromise and communication, and the rest of the nation has lowered itself to sophomoric name calling?

And the President is not to blame for any of this divide? The one thing I have noticed about you zz and mabe its because of the liberal blood in your veins...but you can NEVER bring yourself to a point where you actually hold the President accountable for anything no matter what the topic may be.

Originally Posted by zz0468

American morals and values are deteriorating, and while the religious right blames it on the left and on a lack of religious lifestyles. I'd like to remind you that you're the one doing the sophomoric name calling, not me.

So, I see you as part of the problem, not part of any solution.

So you admit that values and morals in this country are deteriorating. That's interesting coming from a liberal atheist such as yourself. Besides what name calling are you refering to anyway? Have I called you any names latley? For one thing I dont even know your name. Look zz I don't know if you have noticed but I have turned over a new leaf since my return. Thats right Im now on a new medication. So I shall extend an olive branch and say lets be part of the solution my friend. Vote for Romney in November!

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by N1RGR

You seriously dont think Obama has made the divide worse? There is NOT a bipartisan bone in the mans body!

I don't doubt he's contributing it, but I think the current political environment with the political divide such as it is, would exist no matter who was in office today.

Originally Posted by N1RGR

Was you out of the country or something during the whole Health Care debates. As I stated in the above post,the Republicans were totally shut out of the whole process and the American people who opposed the bill were ridiculed and insulted by their representatives?

How were they "shut out"? Because they held the minority in Congress and in the Executive office? That's politics as usual, and the same "shut out" would have happened had the political tables been turned 180 degrees.

Originally Posted by N1RGR

You don't think that made things worse???

It didn't help, but I don't hold Obama personally responsible as having intentionally acting to make things worse. He's intentionally acting to further the Democratic Party agenda. It just so happens that approximately half the nation believes that agenda to be wrong.

Originally Posted by N1RGR

And the President is not to blame for any of this divide? The one thing I have noticed about you zz and mabe its because of the liberal blood in your veins...but you can NEVER bring yourself to a point where you actually hold the President accountable for anything no matter what the topic may be.

Not so. I just don't hold him to any DIFFERENT standard than any other president. Most of my arguments here are based upon the fact that many of you guys DO seem to hold him to a different standard. He's just a mediocre Democratic politician, nothing more, nothing less. This very thread started back in July with you complaining that Obama is demanding Romney's tax returns to be released. Where's the problem? Republicans have been demanding Obama's birth certificate. My initial comment was simply that it sounds like politics as usual.

Originally Posted by N1RGR

So you admit that values and morals in this country are deteriorating.

That seems to be a popular opinion that I'm not inclined to disagree with.

Originally Posted by N1RGR

That's interesting coming from a liberal atheist such as yourself.

Centrist agnostic. I don't argue against the existence of a God, because I don't know the answer to that. I argue about the existence of religion, because I know religion is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Originally Posted by N1RGR

Besides what name calling are you refering to anyway?

This one:

Originally Posted by elk2370bruce

I believe that the fault will remain with Congressional dynamic inertia. If Gov. Romney wins but does not carry one or more of the chambers' majority, the Damnocraps will pull the Harry Reid gambit against him.

And this one:

Originally Posted by N1RGR

I agree zz...people who reduce themselves to all the name calling and political backbiting are nothing but immature neanderthals. I for one would never refer to those leftist Marxist zombies as Damnocraps! How rude! (I don't mean you Bruce.) lol.

And this one:

Originally Posted by N1RGR

You mean Harry "Pinocchio" Reid. That no good for nothing liar! He puts the "Crap" in Damno!!! lol.

Shall I go on?

Originally Posted by N1RGR

Have I called you any names latley? For one thing I dont even know your name.

I don't care what names you call me, I really don't. That's not my point. My point is that the name calling is symptomatic of a deeper lack of respect of people with diverging opinions, and how we really have no right to expect Congress to behave better than we the people are behaving... which is abysmal. Really... damnocraps? This is so... 3rd grade. You really expect people to take your arguements seriously when you use terms like that? It makes me feel like I'm arguing with a bunch of 10 year olds.

Ever get the feeling of deja vu? This is not the first time I've said something like that about how some of you debate here.

Originally Posted by N1RGR

Look zz I don't know if you have noticed but I have turned over a new leaf since my return. Thats right Im now on a new medication.

Um... no. I hadn't noticed.

Originally Posted by N1RGR

So I shall extend an olive branch and say lets be part of the solution my friend. Vote for Romney in November!

So far, you've failed to convince me that Romney is actually better. How was he going to change the course of the country again? What is it that makes him THE MAN who will fix the economy? Every time I look deeper into his politics, I see nothing but typical Republican policies as usual, and that's part of what got us here in the first place. I seem to recall a Republican President was in place when the rug was pulled out from under the economy.

How about you extend the olive branch and continue a civil debate about policy, and leave the name calling (examples above) at the door, so I can at least feel that I'm arguing with a mature adult. Right now, I'm just not getting that.

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by Highpockets

It doesn't bother you that two black people dressed all in black with clubs in their hands were standing outside a voting place intimidating people

Yes, that bothers me. Those two black people should stop. And the white people who do it too, should stop.

Originally Posted by Highpockets

and nothing is done about it? That makes me question the president and his At General.

I agree with you that the AG at least needs to clarify why little has been done. There's a reason, I just don't know what it is. It could be a good reason, it might not be. This issue does not define the election for me, however. The issue is so shrouded in political spin, that it's difficult to sort out what's real and what's opinion. A quick google search brings out articles like this:

http://jacksonville.com/news/nationa...ar-exaggerated

So, much of what people are reacting to appears to be political spin.

Originally Posted by Highpockets

When it comes to the Press, all of it, when I was younger we all sat around the TV and watched the news, that's when reporters went out on the road and did their job, today they sit behind a desk and write what ever they feel like, not caring about the truth.

Yes. And still, we call it "news". The reality is, people have lost their ability to discern between fact and opinion. The insidious part is that they don't care. So long as the opinion being spouted is one the can agree with, the facts be damned. And here we sit, in RR's politics forum, trying to win arguments by opinion.

Originally Posted by Highpockets

Most of the leaders in the House and Senate have been there to long, until they are replaced it will remain the same.

I agree. So, why aren't people out there passionately pushing new candidates for Congress? Everyone is focused on the President, but they're leaving out the single most important branch of government - the one that actually sets policy.

Originally Posted by Highpockets

Also a good leader who is in the White House most of the time might help also.

Will Republicans complain about Romney (if he wins) when he travels? Will they complain when he hits the campaign trail at year 3 of his presidency? Will they complain when he takes two weeks out to go to Camp David? Or will a double standard become apparent?

Some of the complaints about the current president are about practices that ALL Presidents participate in - including travel and vacations.

Originally Posted by Highpockets

We'll know in a month in which direction this country will go.

There will be no "mandate" when it comes to election statistics. It'll be a tight race, and any party shifts in Congress is going to me in small handfuls. Don't expect much change in the next 4 years, no matter who wins. It's the system that's the problem, not any one individual.

[Highpockets]

Originally Posted by zz0468

Yes, that bothers me. Those two black people should stop. And the white people who do it too, should stop.

I agree with you that the AG at least needs to clarify why little has been done. There's a reason, I just don't know what it is. It could be a good reason, it might not be.

I glad it bothered you, but we're not talking about white people in this case.

Just think for a minute, you'll figure out why he (they) are doing nothing. For someone who always has an answer, you skating right past this one.

[Highpockets]

Originally Posted by zz0468

How were they "shut out"? Because they held the minority in Congress and in the Executive office? That's politics as usual, and the same "shut out" would have happened had the political tables been turned 180 degrees.

I argue about the existence of religion, because I know religion is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Not so, Clinton got off his liberal band wagon and actually worked with the Republicans and they both got something done, and so have other presidents. This guy won't do it!

Religion is everywhere, and how can you say it's part of the problem in the US. People who don't believe are part of the problem, look what they do at our Vets funerals.

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by Highpockets

I glad it bothered you, but we're not talking about white people in this case.

No, "WE" are not. MY point was, it bothers me every bit as much when white people intimidate black voters as it does when black people intimidate white voters.

Originally Posted by Highpockets

Just think for a minute, you'll figure out why he (they) are doing nothing.

Because there wasn't enough to work with? Have you read anything other than FOX opinion about the matter.

Originally Posted by Highpockets

For someone who always has an answer, you skating right past this one.

And you seemed to skip right past this:

"According to the timeline and testimony before the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, the decision not to criminally charge the New Black Panthers was made during the Bush administration."

... from the article I just linked to.

So, you tell me... Just what spin are we supposed to swallow on this story? The one YOU like?

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by Highpockets

Not so, Clinton got off his liberal band wagon and actually worked with the Republicans and they both got something done, and so have other presidents.

I think history will show Clinton as having been an exceptional president, in his ability to bridge political gaps better than any other president.

Originally Posted by Highpockets

This guy won't do it!

Won't, or can't? I'm inclined to believe he can't, as in he's not that much of a leader and has an inability to unite people of different opinion, as opposed to a conscious decision not to. As I've said many times before, Obama's real problem is his mediocrity, not his dogma.

Originally Posted by Highpockets

Religion is everywhere, and how can you say it's part of the problem in the US. People who don't believe are part of the problem, look what they do at our Vets funerals.

What are you talking about? Vet's funerals? Are you talking about the Westboro Baptist Church? Yet another example of religion being part of the problem.

I rest my case.

[Highpockets]

Originally Posted by zz0468

What are you talking about? Vet's funerals? Are you talking about the Westboro Baptist Church? Yet another example of religion being part of the problem.

I rest my case.

How do you feel about them showing up at the funerals? What's the problem, holding the funeral or having them show up to protest?

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by Highpockets

How do you feel about them showing up at the funerals? What's the problem, holding the funeral or having them show up to protest?

While I agree with their right to show up, I disagree with the message they're delivering. I'll up that a notch and state that I think their message is despicable. And I think they're hurting their religious cause, and not helping anyone.

[Highpockets]

Originally Posted by zz0468

While I agree with their right to show up, I disagree with the message they're delivering. I'll up that a notch and state that I think their message is despicable. And I think they're hurting their religious cause, and not helping anyone.

Wow, we agree on something.

By the way, here is some good reading on the Black Panthers, if you have a minute read all of it. Interesting...

http://www.usccr.gov/NBPH/USCCR_NBPP_report.pdf

[ridgescan]

And it took guys of MY color to put obama over the top

[Highpockets]

Originally Posted by ridgescan

And it took guys of MY color to put obama over the top

I just hope this election people learn from their mistakes.

[InlandAZ]

"According to the timeline and testimony before the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, the decision not to criminally charge the New Black Panthers was made during the Bush administration."

That's correct, but you left out what followed -

The Department of Justice became aware of the incident on Election Day and started an inquiry. Under the Bush administration, a criminal investigation into the incident was started, but later dropped.[10][11] Instead, in January 2009, less than two weeks before the Bush administration left office, the civil rights division of the Department of Justice filed a civil suit under the voting rights act against four defendants, namely, Minister King Samir Shabazz, Jerry Jackson, NBPP chairman Malik Zulu Shabazz, and the NBPP itself.

The criminal investigation was dropped and replaced with a civil lawsuit under the Voting Rights act.

[K8TOB]

Originally Posted by InlandAZ

The criminal investigation was dropped and replaced with a civil lawsuit under the Voting Rights act.

And as I understand the DOJ has dropped the Civil lawsuit. And that no one is investigating the fact that Assistant Attorney General Perez lied under oath in a hearing held by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights investigating the decision to drop the charges against the NBPP.

Perez was asked by the commission if any politcal leadership were involved with the decision to not pursue the case any further, he responded "NO".

When Judical Watch filed suit against the DOJ for not releasing documents around this case, Judge Reggie B. Walton of the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia noted in the ruling "...The documents reveal that political appointees within DOJ were conferring about the status and resolution of the New Black Panther Party case in the days preceding the DOJ’s dismissal of claims in that case..."

Just another Obama / Holder cover-up. Send them back to Chicago.

[K8TOB]

Originally Posted by K8TOB

Just another Obama / Holder cover-up. Send them back to Chicago.

And their destination should be the Federal Prison: Metropolitan Correctional Center, Chicago

But understanding that the DOJ and Eric Holder feel that they answer to no one but the DOJ itself, that will probably never happen. The open and blatant corruption in the DOJ is disgusting!