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Old 02-24-2013, 10:55 PM
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Thumbs down DOJ Memo: Outlaw and Confiscate All Guns

Greg Ridgeway, Ph.D. - Deputy Director National Institute of Justice

January 4, 2013
On average there are about 11,000 firearm homicides every year. While there are deaths resulting from
accidental discharges and suicides, this document will focus on intentional firearm homicides. Fatalities
from mass shootings (those with 4 or more victims in a particular place and time) account on average for
35 fatalities per year. Policies that address the larger firearm homicide issue will have a far greater impact even if they do not address the particular issues of mass shootings. This document provides a cursory summary of select initiatives to reduce firearm violence and an assessment of the evidence for the initiative. Gun buybacks Twitter summary: Buybacks are ineffective unless massive and coupled with a ban Goal: Reduce access to firearms by inc entivizing owners to dispose of their unwanted guns rather than transfer them to a more risky possessor Evidence:

Gun buybacks are ineffective as generally implemented

1. The buybacks are too small to have an impact.
2. The guns turned in are at low risk of ever being used in a crime.
3. Replacement guns are easily acquired. Unless these three points are overcome, a gun buyback
cannot be effective.

The 1997 Australia gun buyback and its associated regulations is an exception to this.

1. It was large, buying back 20% of the firearm stock.
2. It targeted semi-automatic weapons.
3. It coupled the buybackwith a ban on certain weapons and a nationwide registration and licensing
program.

There is strong evidence that it reduced mass killings (before the initiative massacres occurred on average once per year and none have occurred in the 15 years since). The Australia buyback appears to have had no effect on crime otherwise. One study (Leigh & Neill 2010) has proven confusing in that its abstract suggests that Australia’s gun buyback reduced firearm homicide rates by 80%, but the body of the report finds no effect. Others (Reuter & Mouzas 2003) have used the same data and also found no effect on crime although they also noted that mass shootings appear to have disappeared in Australia. A third study (Chapman etal 2006) using Australian data from 1979 to 2003 shows that the firearm homicide rate was already declining prior to the firearm reforms and that there is no evidence that the new egislation accelerated the declines. This remains true when data through 2007 are added to the analysis (conducted by G. Ridgeway on 1/3/2013 at NIJ). Large capacity magazines restrictions Twitter summary: Great potential to reduce lethality; requires a massive reduction in supply Goal: Reduce the lethality of guns by reducing the number of rounds that can be quickly fired.

Program: Restrictions on the manufacture, sale, transfer, and possession of large capacity magazines
(usually defined as holding more than 10 rounds).

Evidence: Mass shootings predominantly involve the use of large capacity magazines. The most lethal
ones all involve large capacity magazines. In addition large capacity magazines were used in nearly 25%
of all crimes in 1993 just prior to the ban. There is reason to believe that reducing the availability of large
capacity magazines could have an effect on the total number of homicides.

In five cities studied closely found no change in the criminal use of large capacity magazines during the
ten year ban. However, a Washington Post analysis for Virginia continued the analysis where the
research team left off. The data indicate that the percentage of crime guns using large capacity magazines declined from 18% in 1999 (when magazine imports were highest) to its lowest level in 2004
(10% of crime guns had large capacity magazines). The percentage doubled between 2004, when the
ban expired, and 2010.

The 1994 ban on large capacity magazines had limited effectiveness because:

1) Large capacity clips are adurable good.
2) There were an estimated 25 million guns with large capacity magazines in 1995
3) The 1994 law exempted magazines manufactured before 1994 so that the importation of large capacity
magazines manufactured overseas before 1994 continued through the ban.
4) while the price of the clips increased dramatically (80% during the ban) they were not unaffordable.

A 2004 study of the 1994 law found: “because the ban has not yet reduced the use of large capacity magazines in crime, we cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence.
”The 1994 ban essentially did little to affect the supply of large capacity magazines. In order to have an impact, large capacity magazine regulation needs to sharply curtail their availability to include restrictions on importation, manufacture, sale, and possession. An exemption for previously owned magazines would nearly eliminate any impact. The program would need to be coupled with an extensive buyback of existin
g large capacity magazines. With an exemption the impact of the restrictions would only be felt when the magazines degrade or when they no longer are compatible with guns in circulation. This would take decades to realize Ammunition logs Twitter summary: Increases opportunities to detect illegal firearm possessors

Goal:
1) Reduce flow of ammunition to the illicit market and
2) Develop leads for illegal weapons.

Program: Laws that prohibit certain individuals from owning firearms also pertain to ammunition
(18 US. 922g&n). Whereas direct retail sales of firearms to criminals are regularly disrupted by instant
background checks, sales of ammunition are essentially unchecked. Ammunition purchase logs are a
means of checking for illegal purchases and for developing intelligence on illegal firearms. Alternatively,
several states do not record purchases, but rather require the purchaser to show a permit to purchase ammunition and only of the same caliber or gauge as their firearm. While purchasing a fire arm is a one
-time action, repeated purchases of ammunition create more complications for prohibited firearm possessors.

Evidence: A study used criminal background checks conducted on individuals purchasing ammunition in
Los Angeles in April and May 2004. 2.6% of transactions involved prohibited purchasers. They purchased
5,000 rounds of ammunition per month during this period. Rather than institute instant checks on
ammunition purchases, local police began regularly checking the logs for illegal purchases, using it as an
intelligence tool to find not only ammunition but also the illegally possessed weapons. Sacramento
instituted a similar program and identified 13 illegal purchasers per month in the first year, recovering
an average of 7 illegal firearms per month. There is evidence that the program can be used to identify prohibited purchasers and can aid in the recovery of illegal firearms. The volume of recoveries is not of a scale likely to impact the illegal firearm trade, but could disrupt some criminal activity.

In 2009 California passed AB 962 that would make the ammunition logs statewide. It has since been held
up in court due primarily to the use of the phrase “handgun ammunition,” which is not a well-defined
phrase. Universal background checks Twitter summary: Effectiveness depends on the ability to reduce straw purchasing, requiring gun registration and an easy gun transfer process To understand the value of background checks it is essential to understand the source of crime guns. Several sporadic attempts have been made to learn how criminals acquire guns. For example, a 2000 study by the ATF found the following distribution of sources:

Source Percentage:
Straw purchase 47%
Stolen 26%
Store 14%
Residence 10%
Common carrier 2%
Unregulated private seller 20%
Gun shows/flea markets 13%
Retail diversion 8%

Note: Percentages do not add up to 100% since some sources fall into multiple categories (e.g. unregulated seller at aflea market)

These figures indicate informal transfers dominate the crime gun market. A perfect universal
background check system can address the gun shows and might deter many unregulated private sellers.
However, this does not address the largest sources (straw purchasers and theft) , which would most
likely become larger if background checks at gun shows and private sellers were addressed. The
secondary market is the primary source of crime guns. Ludwig and Cook (2000) compared states that
introduced Brady checks to those states that already had background checks and found no effect of the
new background checks. They hypothesized that the background checks simply shifted to the seconda
ry market those offenders who normally purchased in the primary market. Supply sources can vary in different parts of the country. An NIJ funded study of the Los Angeles illicit gun market noted: “Results showed that many crime guns were first purchased at local — that is, in county — licensed dealers, rather than from out of state. That is, contrary to the conventional wisdom that crime guns were being trafficked across state borders from places with less stringent regulations,such as Arizona and Nevada, we found that a majority of the guns used in crimes were purchased in Los Angeles County.” Thus
, gun markets can be highly local. Understanding gun sources requires a sustained and localized s
urveillance program. For example, the program could interview new arrestees at intake about how they acquired their gun, cost, and general gun availability. This could be conducted in conjunction with BJA’s plans to target local violence prevention program s in 20 cities. This is similar to the ADAM program for monitoring drug markets and could, in fact, complement any restart of ADAM. In the coming years such data could become available through BJS efforts; BJS will include a series of questions in its 2013
/2014 national inmate survey.

Target straw purchasers Straw purchasers are the primary source of crime guns. Importantly, straw purchasers have no record of a prohibiting offense. As a result, they are quite different from those who actually commit crimes. Consistent with criminological theory, because the person conducting the straw purchase does not have a criminal history forbidding him or her from making legal purchases, this population could potentially be deterred from initiating this illegal activity.
Because straw purchasers are the largest source for the illicit market and these purchasers likely can be
deterred, effort should be focused here. There is little evidence on what works. The ATF and NSSF
sponsored the “Don’t Lie for the Other Guy” public awareness campaign starting in 2000 but there are
no evaluation reports of its effectiveness. A Los Angeles program to target straw purchasers sent new
gun buyers a letter, signed by prominent law enforcement officials, indicating that law enforcement had a record of their gun purchase and that the gun buyer should properly record future transfers of the gun.
The letters arrived during buyers’ 10 - day waiting periods, before they could legally return to the store to collect their new gun.

An NIJ-funded study found that the letter could modify gun owner behaviors. The study found that the rate at which guns are reported stolen for those who received the letter is more than twice the rate for those who did not receive the letter. While this does not show an effect on crime, it does show that a simple letter to those at risk of diverting guns to the illicit market can modify their behavior. Require all gun transfers to occur at an FFL Some states, such as California, require all transfers of guns to be properly documented (since 1923).

This usually requires the involvement of a federally licensed dealer in the transaction. Despite this, straw
purchasing continues largely unabated. Wachtel (1998) describes some straw purchasing of crime guns
for Los Angeles between 1988 and 1995.

There are disincentives to following the law in California ($35 and a waiting period). Such a process can
discourage a normally law - abiding citizen to spend the time and money to properly transfer his or her firearm to another. To be effective, requiring all transfers to occur at an FFL needs to be coupled with all the necessary incentives (or at least no disincentives) for unlicensed sellers to follow the law. Sanctions and threats of penalties are insufficient.

Gun shows Gun shows do provide firearms to the illicit market, but the problem is not uniquely about gun shows but rather secondary transfers of unregulated private sellers. Gun shows simply convene umerous
private sellers along with FFLs. Gun shows in states requiring all transfers to be documented have fewer
illegal gun sales according to Wintemute et al 2007.

Gun registration and continuous checks for possession eligibility Universal checks are insufficient
for ensuring that firearm owners remain eligible. Convictions, mental health issues, and restraining orders can develop after the background checks.

Recovering guns from those that become ineligible is likely effective. There is evidence from three
studies that policies that check domestic violence perpetrators for firearm possession are effective at
reducing intimate partner violence.

Vigdor and Mercy (2006) found a 7% reduction in intimate partner homicide in states that allowed guns to be confiscated on site of domestic violence incidents. Zeoli and Webster (2010) found that state statute
s restricting those under restraining orders from accessing firearms are associated with reductions
of 20% - 25% in total and firearm intimate partner homicide.

Bridges et al (2008) found that most domestic violence laws do not effect intimate partner homicide
except those relating to firearms. All three studies use methods that make alternative explanations
unlikely. The challenge to implementing this more broadly is that most states do not have a registry of firearm ownership. Currently NICS background checks are destroyed within 24 hours. Some states maintain registration of all firearms. Gun registration aims to:

1) increase owner responsibility by directly connecting an owner with a gun,
2) Improve law enforcement’s ability to retrieve guns from owners prohibited from possessing firearms.

Gun registration also allows for the monitoring of multiple gun purchases in a short period of time. Assault weapon ban Twitter summary:

Assault weapons are not a major contributor to gun crime. The existing stock of assault weapons is large, undercutting the effectiveness of bans with exemptions

Goal: Limit access to assault weapons.

Program: Ban the manufacture, sale, transfer, or possession of assault weapons.

Evidence: Guns are durable goods. The 1994 law exempted weapons manufactured before 1994. The
exemption of pre-1994 models ensures that a large stock, estimated at 1.5 million, of existing weapons
would persist. Prior to the 1994 ban, assault we apons were used in 2 - 8% of crimes. Therefore a complete elimination of assault weapons would not have a large impact on gun homicides. A National Academy study of firearms and violence concluded that the weaknesses of the ban and the scientific literature suggest that the assault weapon ban did not have an effect on firearm homicides. There is some evidence that the assault weapons bans can affect the availability of assault weapons.

A 2004 study found that “Following implementation of the ban, the share of gun crimes involving
[assault weapons] declined by 17% to 72% across the localities examined for this study (Baltimore, Miami, Milwaukee, Boston, St. Louis, and Anchorage)...

This is consistent with patterns found in national data on guns recovered by police and reported to ATF.
”Weil and Knox (1997) found a sharp reduction in the number of assault weapons recovered by Baltimore police in the six months following Maryland’s ban on assault weapons. The federal ban came into effect a few months after Maryland’s ban, but Maryland’s ban had no provision grandfathering in already owned assault weapons.

Since assault weapons are not a major contributor to US gun homicide and the existing stock of guns is
large, an assault weapon ban is unlikely to have an impact on gun violence. If coupled with a gun
buyback and no exemptions then it could be effective. The 1997 Australian gun buyback was massive in
scale and, while it appears to have had no effect on gun homicide, Australia has had no mass shootings
since the ban was put in place.

Smart guns Twitter summary:

Most appropriate for making guns child safe or preventing police officers from being assaulted with their own firearm. Unlikely to affect gun crime

Goal: Prevent gun use by unauthorized users, particular to prevent diversion of legally acquired firearms
to the illicit market.

Program: Between 1994 and 2004, the National Institute of Justice conducted a research effort to
develop a technology that would preclude anyone but the owner of a gun from using it. If a gun were
stolen with this technology installed, it would become inoperable. The focus of this effort was to
preclude a law enforcement officer’s gun from being used if it were wrested from them during an
assault. This technology was commonly referred to as ‘smart’ gun technology because it enabled the
gunto ‘recognize’ its owner.

In its 2005 assessment of this effort “Technological Options for User - Authorized Handguns: A
Technology - Readiness Assessment ” the National Academy of Engineering estimated that it would cost
an additional $30 million and take 5 to 10 additional years to bring a ‘smart’ gun to market. The most
likely approach to achieving this capability would be through use of radio frequency identification (RFID)
technology.

Evidence: The development of the technology has focused on making the guns child - proof or providing
law enforcement officers with a firearm that could not be used against them. The realization of this technology would not prevent such shootings perpetrated by the owners of the guns involved. In addition this would not eliminate the illicit market, but rather alter it. There would remain an illicit market for guns that did not have this technology installed or for smart guns in which the technology had been neutralized.

SORCE: http://static.infowars.com/2013/02/i...olicy-memo.pdf
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Old 02-25-2013, 8:00 AM
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I support the troops and only the men and women fighting for our rights to be free. This includes the vets and MARS members.

My concerns with the military now is the new army manual asking if I would shoot Americans on the home grounds during civil unrest. According to the constitution it is illegal to have a standing army for more than 2 years, and having boots on the ground in the home land is illegal too. The loop hole with the 2 years thing is that we are always at war.(example: WWI, WWII, Vietnam War, Korea War, Cold War,ect.)

Now solders have the powers to arrest you and me without due-process, and soon bust down your door and take your guns. DHS now using targets with pitchers of kids with guns, Ma & Pa with guns, and pregnant women with a gun. " See Pic Below:

So Why would I want to join a military like that?
I do not know if the images you posted will show up in your quote above, but it is a pretty giant leap to look at targets of civilians and translate that into a military that is supposedly about to bust in our doors and take our guns away, etc etc.

You referenced a purported Army manual you found on line as proof of these nefarious plans, but how do you know if the manual is even genuine? Just because it shows up on the Internet and is cited by conspiracy theorists does not make it real.

The voluminous post you made above, the source you attributed all that information to was Alex Jones' Infowars. Meaning it is worthless. Alex Jones and his web sites, Infowars and Prison Planet, are not credible at all. If you believe everything that Alex Jones excretes then I have a bridge I'd love to sell to you... truly, Alex Jones is a charlatan and makes his living off of fanning the flames of discontent. Keeping his audience paranoid, fearful and insecure may result in a failure to think critically. Folks don't reason so well when they are scared, and maybe the Alex Jones' of the world want it that way. Makes folks easier to manipulate and follow the leader if they really don't stop and think about who peddles these conspiracy theories, and why.

There are hundreds of conspiracy theories percolating. And they have been for decades, many of the same conspiracies repeating themselves over and over with new adherents spouting the same old song and dance, to be replaced gradually over the years by new zealots who take up the cause. But somehow, the conspiracies never really seem to materialize as it was fervently claimed they surely would. Its like these extreme end of the world religious sects that predict that the world will end on a certain date. And when the date comes and nothing happens...

And yet, some of those types still believe. Since the facts are not on their side (or yours), what may be compelling their continued extremism are unresolved personal issues driving them to it. Interestingly, some of these folks may not even be aware that what drives them are really not the causes they champion at all.

"Now soldiers have the power to arrest you and me without due process." That is total and absolute bull****. Of course, I am willing to make an exception in your case if that would help. I will be happy to stop by, arrest you just because I can, and have you transported directly to one of our FEMA concentration camps indefinitely for... reeducation... [Insert maniacal laughing sound track here]

Last edited by Net-5; 02-25-2013 at 8:54 AM.. Reason: Added the soundtrack :)
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Old 02-25-2013, 8:21 AM
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Default Re: Legislation reinstating the draft

if you people don't think we need troops patrolling our streets come to Detroit it'll change your opinion really fast. Stay safe stay armed

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Old 02-25-2013, 9:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kc8syo View Post
if you people don't think we need troops patrolling our streets come to Detroit it'll change your opinion really fast. Stay safe stay armed

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That is a great point, because what if some truly legitimate circumstance arises that would genuinely call for the deployment of regular US troops (non NG) on American soil? And not as part of some evil government plot of some sort? We need to have that capability in my opinion.

As for sending troops to Detroit, that may not be a bad idea, lol.
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Old 02-25-2013, 9:26 AM
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(You referenced a purported Army manual you found on line as proof of these nefarious plans, but how do you know if the manual is even genuine? Just because it shows up on the Internet and is cited by conspiracy theorists does not make it real. ) Sorce: Army Manual Outlines Plan To Kill Rioters, Demonstrators In America - David Icke Website

(Now soldiers have the power to arrest you and me without due process) Sorce: NDAA "the indefinite detention of any terrorism suspects without trial"

The alex jone thing, Well his stuff is esyer to download, Expely whenmy sources maches with his sorces. Most of my sorces is family thats in goverment. They know whats going on and tell me.

There are hundreds of conspiracy theories percolating. And you think all is fine, That feets never got that letter along with hundreds of others, that thoose pics i post are fake and they never got sold even tho i posted there web iste link stating they did, And the government is not wanting control over your life.. WOW... I guess your right.........."YR"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To kc8syo.. I understand the detroit status. to sovle there problem. 1 hire more cop, allow 2ccw permit. it works in the biggest city I live in. Lowest crime rate. If we have the money to send hundreds of troops to your city Then they have the money to hire more cops.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kc0vgj View Post
(You referenced a purported Army manual you found on line as proof of these nefarious plans, but how do you know if the manual is even genuine? Just because it shows up on the Internet and is cited by conspiracy theorists does not make it real. ) Sorce: Army Manual Outlines Plan To Kill Rioters, Demonstrators In America - David Icke Website

(Now soldiers have the power to arrest you and me without due process) Sorce: NDAA "the indefinite detention of any terrorism suspects without trial"

The alex jone thing, Well his stuff is esyer to download, Expely whenmy sources maches with his sorces. Most of my sorces is family thats in goverment. They know whats going on and tell me.

There are hundreds of conspiracy theories percolating. And you think all is fine, That feets never got that letter along with hundreds of others, that thoose pics i post are fake and they never got sold even tho i posted there web iste link stating they did, And the government is not wanting control over your life.. WOW... I guess your right.........."YR"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To kc8syo.. I understand the detroit status. to sovle there problem. 1 hire more cop, allow 2ccw permit. it works in the biggest city I live in. Lowest crime rate. If we have the money to send hundreds of troops to your city Then they have the money to hire more cops.
Well, I never wrote that everything was fine. Nor did I ever claim that images you posted were faked. Rather, the source you cited is not credible. The claims you make are not credible. And it seems that what I wrote went right over your head.

But that's okay. Some of these dastardly conspiracies and their adherents can be pretty entertaining, so be my guest...

Last edited by Net-5; 02-25-2013 at 10:15 AM..
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:46 AM
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i post one thing from his site along with other site, and the manufactor site. So how is that not credible when the links leds to the source or a link link to the main source.

Lets say if 85% of alex's post are real, and the remaining 15% is not true then he not a conspiracy theories, he just been missled. BUT if alex information was lets say the other way around then yes that would make him a conspiracy theories.

And here a kicker for you, Try to prove hime wrong. Everything he post he shows you proof and links to find the information your-self. Not only that he shows you video of the people saying what they said in the past that they are denieing now.

So I challenge any one to Disprove Alex Jone. With links to hard Evidence. Yes you can use the HR Documents, NDAA, ect. to help you prove him wrong.

A conspiracy theories can be proving wrong 90% of the time, The truth can't be proven wrong.

So if alex jones is a fake then way would the FBI be watching his every move. Just asking.

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Old 02-25-2013, 12:46 PM
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They would hire more cops if they had the money but Detroit is on the verge of bankrupsy because of poor management from the city the cops have already taken a 10% pay cut. I say send in the troops.

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Old 02-25-2013, 2:40 PM
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That what I'm saying, Instead of troop have the goverment hire more cops.
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Old 02-26-2013, 3:07 AM
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They would hire more cops if they had the money but Detroit is on the verge of bankrupsy because of poor management from the city the cops have already taken a 10% pay cut. I say send in the troops.

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I hope you get what you ask for. You'll be very disappointed with the results.

I wonder, if the state does not have the money to pay LE, where are they going to get the money to pay soldiers and the massive fuel bill an armed force uses?

If your answer is the Feds, I say go for it. With the Fed Gov massively in debt, it's probably a good idea to flush more money down the Detroit toilet and take the rest of us down the mismanagement road. Michigan may as well take the US down with it.

I'm sure, everyone in my City and State that has kept our governments from overspending will be glad to pay the bill for another city in another state that was too stupid to do the same. It's the 'merican way. Spend other people's money to fix your screw up.

The faster the US goes bankrupt, the better. Spend that money!

FYI, the financial aspect, as bad as it is, is just one small unintended consequence that will result. The rest will be far more unpleasant.

Last edited by feets; 02-26-2013 at 3:23 AM..
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Old 02-26-2013, 3:20 AM
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"Now soldiers have the power to arrest you and me without due process." That is total and absolute bull****. ]
I wish you had started your post with that and not saved it till the end. It would have saved me a lot of wasted reading. Your credibility was shot to bits with that one sentence.
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Old 02-26-2013, 3:27 AM
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So what your saying is its ok too spend billions over in Afghanistan but the hell with the people of Detroit. Feets you are truly a good Republican because if your not you sure have me Buffaloed

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Old 02-26-2013, 8:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kc8syo View Post
They would hire more cops if they had the money but Detroit is on the verge of bankrupsy because of poor management from the city the cops have already taken a 10% pay cut. I say send in the troops.

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The troops work for free?


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Old 02-26-2013, 12:32 PM
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So what your saying is its ok too spend billions over in Afghanistan but the hell with the people of Detroit. Feets you are truly a good Republican because if your not you sure have me Buffaloed

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1. No, I said nothing of Afghanistan. The Middle East as a whole, to include Israel, is another toilet we are flushing money down.

2. I am not a Republican. Nor am I a Democrat. I tend to see the truth in policy rather than pretend one method of spending other peoples money is better than another as the two parties do. I highly recommend ditching a party following. While it's entertaining to watch one side try to take the other side's pet projects while at the same time defending their own, the hypocrisy has driven the country into financial ruin. Feel free to break those party chains yourself.

Last edited by feets; 02-26-2013 at 12:52 PM..
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Old 02-26-2013, 2:22 PM
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Our Freedom of Speech is now shreeded to pieces, Fox news: NOW THE FIRST AMENDMENT! OBAMA SIGNED IN SECRECY THAT FREE SPEECH IS FELONY,ARE YOU PISSED OFF YET - YouTube
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