Gmrs Apco 25

[Mick]

Is using P25 encoded on GMRS repeater channels permitted? A group in SoCal just put up a new repeater today with it in the Los Angeles area on 462.600 MHz.

[n9upc]

I remember that question asked one time before and I thought digital/data/encryption was not legal on GMRS. They are legal on MURS but not GMRS

[N_Jay]

As of now, Digital is not allowed. (Unless I missed something)

[Mick]

Okay, thanks for the info. Quite interesting! At least one user of this P25 repeater is on RR and may see this.

[N2DLX]

Digital modulation is not allowed on GMRS or FRS. I'm not sure off-hand about MURS. I seem to recall that digital is okay on MURS if you previously held a business license for those frequencies which authorized digital. However, I don't think you can just use digital on MURS, and certainly no repeaters are allowed on MURS.

But, I'd like to change the GMRS rules to allow unencrypted digital voice (but not data) transmissions. NXDN would fit in great with GMRS channels due to the low cost and narrow bandwidth, but MotoTRBO and P25 systems would be fine as well. With the Part 90 move to digital, Part 95 radios now exist that are capable of digital modulation. There's nothing wrong with digital -- it's no longer experimental and prices have gone WAY down, making it feasible for personal radio services. It's already well in-use on Ham..

[prcguy]

What area of LA is the new repeater in? I've been listening with a PRO-96 and nothing has lit up yet.
prcguy

[Mick]

I think it's up on Mt. Disappointment with their new 462.60 229.1 repeater. When using P25 they are using an NAC of E47.

Originally Posted by prcguy

What area of LA is the new repeater in? I've been listening with a PRO-96 and nothing has lit up yet.
prcguy

[n1das]

Originally Posted by N2DLX

Digital modulation is not allowed on GMRS or FRS. I'm not sure off-hand about MURS. I seem to recall that digital is okay on MURS if you previously held a business license for those frequencies which authorized digital. However, I don't think you can just use digital on MURS, and certainly no repeaters are allowed on MURS.

But, I'd like to change the GMRS rules to allow unencrypted digital voice (but not data) transmissions. NXDN would fit in great with GMRS channels due to the low cost and narrow bandwidth, but MotoTRBO and P25 systems would be fine as well. With the Part 90 move to digital, Part 95 radios now exist that are capable of digital modulation. There's nothing wrong with digital -- it's no longer experimental and prices have gone WAY down, making it feasible for personal radio services. It's already well in-use on Ham..

(Hi Rich, I saw some of your recent PMs but haven't had time to reply to them.)

NXDN, branded as NEXEDGE by KENWOOD and iDAS by ICOM is already in use in Europe for PMR446, the Euro version of our FRS. It's called dPMR446 or something like that. I'd like to see GMRS/FRS be allowed to have the same sort of thing.

With the future move to "very narrow" bandwidth mode with 6.25kHz channel spacing, the radio manufacturers have claimed they can only effectively do this with digital. NXDN and MotoTRBO are being pushed as the eventual replacement for Part 90 analog radios.

One thing about KENWOOD's NXDN radios is KENWOOD had the forethought to specifically include Part 95 type acceptance in addtion to Part 90. I dunno about the ICOM digital radios but the Kenwoods definitely have Part 95. This makes it a lot easier to present a solid case to the FCC to make rule changes allowing digital on GMRS/FRS given that digital-capable radios with Part 95 type acceptance already exist.

IMHO, GMRS/FRS needs to move out of the stone age in terms of technology and go with the Part 90 flow. The casual unlicensed bubble pack users won't go for it because of the higher equipment costs but serious users likely would because they will want commercial equipment anyway. Serious users are also more likely to be legitimately LICENSED like GMRS users are supposed to be. IMHO, allowing digital on GMRS like what's already in use in Europe on PMR446 could help GMRS/FRS a lot.

I'm with Rich/N2DLX on this one...I want digital to be allowed on GMRS/FRS and MURS!

[Maynardogle]

Unencrypted P25 digital emission per APCO site is "F1E"

http://www.apcointl.org/frequency/emission.html

FCC authorized digital emissions for GMRS are in FCC Rules 95.631(a) and include some digital types (A1D, F1D, G1D, H1D & J1D), but not F1E...

BOTTOM LINE... Don't use P25 on a GMRS repeater.

[n1das]

Originally Posted by Mick

Is using P25 encoded on GMRS repeater channels permitted? A group in SoCal just put up a new repeater today with it in the Los Angeles area on 462.600 MHz.

Are your sure it's P25 digital? Have you confirmed it by monitoring traffic on a P25-cable scanner?

[N_Jay]

Originally Posted by n1das

Are your sure it's P25 digital? Have you confirmed it by monitoring traffic on a P25-cable scanner?

If it is digital it is illegal.

[Mick]

An NAC of E47 is in use, so I'm thinking if my scanner will show me that NAC while they're transmitting, and it sounds like P25 encryption, it probably is.

I don't know what a "P25-cable scanner" is.

Today some GMRS users on Saddle Peak's 462.60 167.9 repeater in L.A. mentioned this "Illegal repeater" which is on their same frq. using P25 encryption.

Originally Posted by n1das

Are your sure it's P25 digital? Have you confirmed it by monitoring traffic on a P25-cable scanner?

[N2DLX]

Originally Posted by N_Jay

If it is digital it is illegal.

To monitor?

We've already agreed that digital is not allowed on GMRS.. Dave was asking him to verify it's P25, and not something else. After all, digital does sound alike.

[N2DLX]

Okay Mick beat me by a few seconds.

Digital is a no-no on GMRS, encryption on GMRS is an even bigger no-no.

[n1das]

Originally Posted by Mick

An NAC of E47 is in use, so I'm thinking if my scanner will show me that NAC while they're transmitting, and it sounds like P25 encryption, it probably is.

I don't know what a "P25-cable scanner" is.

Today some GMRS users on Saddle Peak's 462.60 167.9 repeater in L.A. mentioned this "Illegal repeater" which is on their same frq. using P25 encryption.

P25-cable scanner = P25-capable scanner, aka digital scanner. Typo. My bad.

Looks like you've verified it! Also, the LA group also noticed it and hopefully they'll complain to the FCC about it. IIRC, the FCC has a regional field office in the LA area, so they should be able to easily monitor it.

A couple of thoughts:
- I wonder if it's a case of (illegal) public safey use, i.e., a "squirrel" channel that's been set up for a LE agency to use when they do squirrely stuff, i.e., undercover work. Not real smart to do it on GMRS/FRS but I've heard of it happening before.
- It might be a radio shop set up a GMRS repeater for their own guys to play on, thinking GMRS is already a lost cause and it will go unnoticed there.

I say track 'em down and turn 'em in! If they weren't using encryption, I'd care less about them being there because I want to be able to use digital modulation on GMRS too (NXDN, MotoTRBO, P25) and I'd gladly help push for FCC rule changes to make it legal. But since they're using encryption and we don't know who it is, they need to be identified and if necessary, turned in to the FCC.

Good luck.

[kikito]

Originally Posted by N_Jay

If it is digital it is illegal.

According to "Maynardogle" above, *some* digital is allowed:

Originally Posted by Maynardogle

Unencrypted P25 digital emission per APCO site is "F1E"

http://www.apcointl.org/frequency/emission.html

FCC authorized digital emissions for GMRS are in FCC Rules 95.631(a) and include some digital types (A1D, F1D, G1D, H1D & J1D), but not F1E...

BOTTOM LINE... Don't use P25 on a GMRS repeater.

So which is it?

[n1das]

Originally Posted by kikito

According to "Maynardogle" above, *some* digital is allowed:

So which is it?

APCO-25 digital (P25) modulation is "F1E" and is not one of the emission types listed in 95.631(a). IOW, it's illegal, as pointed out above.

[N_Jay]

Originally Posted by kikito

According to "Maynardogle" above, *some* digital is allowed:



So which is it?

1D is signalling.
1E is voice or audio.

Signalling and control data is allowed, but digital voice is NOT.

Google is your friend.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...st&btnG=Search
Don't fear the Google!

[kikito]

Originally Posted by n1das

APCO-25 digital (P25) modulation is "F1E" and is not one of the emission types listed in 95.631(a). IOW, it's illegal, as pointed out above.

I know about the P25 part, I was responding to N_Jay's blanket statement earlier that NO digital whatsoever is allowed.

[kikito]

Originally Posted by N_Jay

Google is your friend.

Don't fear the Google!

I know about Google.

I just wanted to hear what the "Almighty N_Jay" had to say about that...