Just need a few ideas on where to mount stuff

[mike_art03a]

Howdy folks! With luck, I'll be getting my ham ticket before the end of the week. I have a 2010 Dodge Grand Caravan that I picked up a few weeks back and I'm just trying to figure out where to mount stuff.

At the moment, I'm looking at installing 2 radios (1 cb, the other a ham rig):
- Uniden Bearcat 680 CB
- ICOM 2820H Dual-Bander

I intend to get a dual-band antenna (just don't know what to choose) for the ham rig and mount it just off the hood opposite the radio antenna. However, I'm at a loss as to where to put the CB antenna, I just stick it on the roof with a mag mount for now, but it's getting annoying to remove it every time I go to park my van in a garage (not to mention to make sure no one steals it). I have the antenna already, it's a Workman VMTTM36 36-inch stainless steel whip and it works decently. I'm not looking for massive ranges with the CB, just enough so I know where the truckers are up in the back woods up north when I go see family.

I can't go sticking the CB antenna on the roof, so I was thinking of mounting it just off the hatch in the rear. I'd prefer to keep drilling to a minimum (after all, I just got this thing).

Either way, a few suggestions might be nice. I'm new to installing things in vehicles as well (it's my first one too), but I do have a few uncles who are great gear-heads.

A few notes about the van: I have stow'n'go seating, and no centre console (thank god).

Also, here are a few shots from my crackberry prior to leaving the lot a few weeks back.

[W8RMH]

There are some nice mounts here to mount to your hatchback.

You may also want to consider through-the-glass mounted antennas, although they are not the best performers.

I also see a couple openings in your console that look promising.

[Mtnrider]

For the CB you can as well get a fender mount and a standard nmo mount antenna that would solve that problem. i hate mag mounts more issues with broken cables,paint marred etc....

[Rt169Radio]

There is also the roll-up window mounts. But you can't really use them for CB, just for scanners and ham radio.

MFJ-310 Window Antenna Mount BNC, mfj310

[W2NJS]

Originally Posted by W8RMH

There are some nice mounts here to mount to your hatchback.

You may also want to consider through-the-glass mounted antennas, although they are not the best performers.

I also see a couple openings in your console that look promising.

I keep posting and reposting this message but no one ever seems to learn from it and the thru-glass myths seem to have a life of their own:

"I've posted on the subject of through-glass antennas several times but the inaccurate and misleading information about them persists. Briefly stated, the glass is a capacitor, the RF signal is an alternating current (AC), and the basics of electronics teaches that AC passes through a capacitor but the capacitor blocks DC. The fact is that there is nothing wrong with a through-glass antenna if it's installed and tuned properly, and the blanket statement that such installations are "really bad to begin with" is simply not true. Now, if one insists on installing such an antenna on dark-tinted glass, or directly over defroster wires in the glass, the antenna will not operate properly, but if you install it correctly it should work as well, or almost as well, as an antenna with a regular ground plane mounted on a trunk lid."

[digitalanalog]

Thank You

Originally Posted by W2NJS

I keep posting and reposting this message but no one ever seems to learn from it and the thru-glass myths seem to have a life of their own:

"I've posted on the subject of through-glass antennas several times but the inaccurate and misleading information about them persists. Briefly stated, the glass is a capacitor, the RF signal is an alternating current (AC), and the basics of electronics teaches that AC passes through a capacitor but the capacitor blocks DC. The fact is that there is nothing wrong with a through-glass antenna if it's installed and tuned properly, and the blanket statement that such installations are "really bad to begin with" is simply not true. Now, if one insists on installing such an antenna on dark-tinted glass, or directly over defroster wires in the glass, the antenna will not operate properly, but if you install it correctly it should work as well, or almost as well, as an antenna with a regular ground plane mounted on a trunk lid."

[mmckenna]

Originally Posted by W2NJS

I keep posting and reposting this message but no one ever seems to learn from it and the thru-glass myths seem to have a life of their own:

"I've posted on the subject of through-glass antennas several times but the inaccurate and misleading information about them persists. Briefly stated, the glass is a capacitor, the RF signal is an alternating current (AC), and the basics of electronics teaches that AC passes through a capacitor but the capacitor blocks DC. The fact is that there is nothing wrong with a through-glass antenna if it's installed and tuned properly, and the blanket statement that such installations are "really bad to begin with" is simply not true. Now, if one insists on installing such an antenna on dark-tinted glass, or directly over defroster wires in the glass, the antenna will not operate properly, but if you install it correctly it should work as well, or almost as well, as an antenna with a regular ground plane mounted on a trunk lid."

In a perfect world, this is correct.

In the real world:
I've seen some crappy installs, and like you suggested, people don't put much thought into their antenna installs.
Glass mounts often put the radiator below the roof line, so there is some signal blocking.
Some brands of glass mount antennas don't allow tuning, or they use an adjustment on the inside glass mount that just basically hides the SWR issues from the radio.
On a CB antenna, the glass mount models I've seen are no where near long enough to be efficient. On VHF, you are looking at a half wave antenna, or roughly 3 feet long. More often what I see are compromise antennas that sacrifice performance for looks.
You are correct, however, when properly installed and not designed for looks, they work just fine. I used one on a UHF install on a car once, and it worked pretty well, except for the antenna being partially below the roofline.

For the new minivan install, as someone else said, I'd research those cubbyholes in the dash as a possible location for the CB. For the dual band radio, this is the sort of install where the remote head installs really help. For the antennas, hatch back mount would work, but I'd suggest a half wave antenna for 2 meters and a separate one for 70cm. Using an antenna that requires a ground plane will likely show some deficiencies with the hatchback mount. The other option is to look at the fender mount you suggested. This will give you a slightly better ground plane under the antenna, but will still result in a funky radiation pattern due to the uneven ground plane.

If it were mine:
A low profile dual band antenna permanent mount in the center of the roof. There are models that are 19 inches tall and have a spring base (Larsen NMO 2/70sh). This will give you a good ground plane under the antenna and the best performance overall. If you really can't stomach drilling the hole, then look at the mag mount. Just be sure to pull the mount off frequently, clean underneath it and move it around a bit to reduce uneven paint fading.
For the CB, permanent NMO on the roof would be my first choice, mag mount would be second choice. Only other option I'd consider would be the fender mount near the hood.

I can't tell if your van has a roof rack or not. There are some mounts that would allow you to use that as a mounting location. This might be a useful option. Either way, you are still going to need to worry about parking garages.

Nice looking van.

[mike_art03a]

Thanks for some of the tips folks. I guess I should clarify the drilling issue, the interior I have no issues with as dash panels are easy to replace if I screw up, sheet metal... not so much. Not to mention, I live in an apartment building, so vehicle work in my parking spot is kinda of a no-no. I've checked with the landlord on that issue, though it's a moot point as I'll be borrowing my uncle's garage for the install process. I've already got a service manual handy with diagrams for all the wiring channels, so that will save me from having to disassemble a ton of stuff to find the wiring runs.

As for the mounting options, I would try to avoid the roof due to clearance issues. I work in security and sometimes use my vehicle for patrols (as I hate the one supplied by our client, and that's when it's not in the shop for stupid reasons), so not having to remove the antennas every time I enter underground parking is a boon for me. As I have said, range isn't too much of an issue for me, I'll try to keep the antennas as high up as I can above the roof.

But mainly, the reason why I was thinking of going with a dual band antenna is due to something called 'The Wife.ᵀᴹ' Even though she doesn't drive (yet), I still have to deal with the gripes. She's supportive of my hobby to a point, but she doesn't want to travel around in a mobile antenna farm. That being said, she seems interested in being able to use the radio once I get my ticket (seems like I passed my test) in the mail with my call sign.

Also, thanks for comments on the van. I chose it not just for practicality, it's a little easier to install stuff in too. I'm having a set of amber service lights installed in this thing so I won't get rear-ended when I have to pull-over for something.

[mmckenna]

All very valid reasons, "The Wife™" can be a powerful influence on such things, and it's usually best to keep her happy.

Glass mount antennas are perfectly acceptable if you install them properly. It isn't hard to do, but takes some planning. On the other hand, a simple quarter wave VHF antenna mounted in the center of the roof often blends in better than something stuck on the window. A quarter wave 2 meter antenna is three quarters wavelength on the 70cm band. While the patter might be a bit funky, they tune up fine and do work. I've done it before and it works fine. It does favor VHF, but UHF works well.
One thing I'd suggest is putting some time into planning out the power feed. Run your radio power directly from the battery for best results. This will give you nice clean power and less chance of picking up noise.

Nice you have a garage to work in. That does make things a lot easier!

[mike_art03a]

mmckenna,

Thanks for the power advice, I was considering the possibility of installing a second battery just above the left rear wheel in the space there that was keyed to the ignition so that it won't drain when the key is not in. How I'll do it, I'm not sure yet. I'll have to consult my uncle on this one. Though I do think that it will require a larger alternator (or 2nd one) to charge both without impacting the electrical systems much. I still have the factory warranty on this thing, so I don't want to screw around too much with it.

Otherwise I could tap into the accessory outlet that works with the battery, it's not keyed to the ignition relay.

[mmckenna]

I had a 1994 GMC 3/4ton pickup that came from the factory with the dual battery set up, gasoline engine, not Diesel.
Their way of doing it was to just install a high amperage relay that connected the two batteries together when the engine was running. An ignition switched circuit was what drove the relay coil. There was a large gauge cable running from the positive terminal of the main battery to the relay and another one to the secondary battery. A pretty simple installation and it did the trick. The truck had the stock 100 amp alternator. It worked quite well, and like you, never had to worry about the radios draining the starting battery. Most police cars have a similar set up, with the secondary battery in the trunk near the radio equipment. It allows them to shut the engine off, but leave the lights and radios going without draining the starting battery. A high amperage circuit breaker is used under the hood to feed the rear battery. You could easily do something similar, and you wouldn't need a large battery. A small tractor/ATV starting battery could be fit in somewhere, likely, and wiring it in would be easy. Newer AGM type batteries even allow mounting sideways or even upside down.
Neat idea. If you do it, please post some pictures!