Less Law Enforcement Attention to Railfans?

[DaveNF2G]

Several railfans have reported more frequent encounters with police during trackside activities, not all of which have been friendly. Some of the investigative interest in railfans has arisen from post-9-11 Homeland Security directives to police agencies regarding SAR - Suspicious Activity Reporting. The standard for desired reporting has been quite broad for the past few years.

Now comes a new directive from DHS narrowing the scope of the police SAR standard. It is redefined to "observed behavior reasonably indicative of pre-operational planning related to terrorism or other criminal activity." This is supposed to be a narrower, more specific standard than reporting practically anyone seen near or photographing anything that might be deemed important, such as railfans taking pictures of trains, perhaps.

Full article is at:

Standard updated for reporting suspicious activity -- Federal Computer Week

[karldotcom]

After my last encounter....I have done a lot less railfanning. First there are less trains, and secondly, I am tired of being quoted nonexistent laws against taking pictures of trains.

[icom1020]

My guess is some of the agents don't like the additional contacts either. The last couple of encounters on land that is questionable have either been "hey, keep a look out for this and that" or "the law states that anywhere "near" a track is considered ROW" (even though I was in a private parking lot) Neither one of them ID'd me but I tend not to help them make their day either by staying on a pubic road.

I saw an Amtrak agent go after a photographer who was taking pictures of the depot and stated he "needed a release" even though the station is owned by the city. He usually sits in the back room and smokes all day. It was the first time I have seen him jump to attention so fast. I've lost interest too, when they cut the caboose and dropped the station agent, the railroad was less personable.

[b7spectra]

In Marietta (GA) I've had several officers drive by and just give me a wave. In Manchester (GA), I had one of their officers stop and chatted with me as he is a huge train buff as well! The only time I had any problem was on an overpass at the Tillman Yards (Atlanta, GA), when the CSX officer strolled up to me and told me that I couldn't take pictures from where I was as it was their property. I politely let him know that I was on a city street and that APD had driven by me several times and had no problems. He left.

[poltergeisty]

The police state is shaping up quit nicely...

Papers, comrade will be the next thing you encounter.

[rvictor]

Originally Posted by poltergeisty

The police state is shaping up quit nicely...

Papers, comrade will be the next thing you encounter.

An interesting comment in light of the original post which reports a narrowing of the scope of interest. Clearly a step backwards for the supposed "police state".

Dick

[Stavro35]

I've only recently snapped a picture of a train in Seattle out in the open. I snapped a picture from my hotel room in Vancouver Washington. I'd be very interested to know if anyone out there is also into plane spotting, and has had trouble with law enforcement or security guards giving them grief about taking pictures, or video?

New group :
NWRailfans : NWRailfans

[RADIOGUY2002]

My 0.02 Cents Worth

In security we are told to make photographers stop, in realilty it comes down to what is really a risk and where or what the photo's consist off. Photographers of trains in themselves is not huge risk, track layout and locations of fixed radio structures maybe an issue. What I'm getting at is it pretty common sense on where a photographer should not be or where the camera angle is postioned at. It's also call interaction with people to find out who or what their doing, however some people will question the leaglatily of investiagtive stops for a lack of better wording to gather information on the possible people that are gathering information on your physical property, etc. I try to teach myself to be prompt and fair in handling such situatons and not so secreative as others do, every guard/ officer has a different agenda on most ocassions. Obiviousily if its a repeat subject that does not fit, different actions need to be taken.

Understanding and proper dillengence is required, not every po / so / ff has those skils all the time

[rvictor]

Originally Posted by RADIOGUY2002

My 0.02 Cents Worth

In security we are told to make photographers stop, in realilty it comes down to what is really a risk and where or what the photo's consist off. Photographers of trains in themselves is not huge risk, track layout and locations of fixed radio structures maybe an issue. What I'm getting at is it pretty common sense on where a photographer should not be or where the camera angle is postioned at. It's also call interaction with people to find out who or what their doing, however some people will question the leaglatily of investiagtive stops for a lack of better wording to gather information on the possible people that are gathering information on your physical property, etc. I try to teach myself to be prompt and fair in handling such situatons and not so secreative as others do, every guard/ officer has a different agenda on most ocassions. Obiviousily if its a repeat subject that does not fit, different actions need to be taken.

Understanding and proper dillengence is required, not every po / so / ff has those skils all the time

I'm curious what the legal justification would be to prevent someone who was standing on public property from taking pictures of, for example, a track layout or fixed radio structure. I'm not aware of any laws making such photography illegal, but would be happy to be enlightened if you are.

Dick

[DaveNF2G]

The whole idea that any part of a railroad is "secret" is laughable. You can't hide a train or move the tracks or relocate the fixed structures without causing chaos. Transmitter locations are public record via the FCC database. Fixed mile posts are clearly indicated on various pieces of trackside hardware that is clearly visible from public space. Control signals and devices are more visible than the tracks.

[gewecke]

A few years ago I was with a buddy who is big into watching BN trains,so we did this on a beautiful saturday morning near the central hub in rochelle,il.
Anyway after being there about a hour or so, a Ogle county squad and railroad supervisor drove by and stopped briefly, We chatted,showed some pics we had in a album from around the country and shared some coffee we had in our thermos.
As a result my buddy received a couple complimentary RR police and maintenance patches for his collection!! This supervisor gave his card,and said if we had any problems while "spotting" have them call the number on his card and the problems would go away!!
Cool!!!!

[trainman111]

I was approached yesterday by a trainmaster visiting from Florence, SC while I was railfanning at CSX's Collier Yard in Petersburg, VA. He was very nice and just asked what I was doing. He then told me to stay safe and have a good day, and he drove away. It seems that lately, CSX Police, the local police, and Virginia State Police have all become a little less "paranoid" so-to-speak about railfans. Had this been two years ago, I probably would have been asked to leave just like what has happened numerous times in the past, but as of late, it seems that they just smile, wave and keep driving.

[b7spectra]

Originally Posted by Stavro35

I've only recently snapped a picture of a train in Seattle out in the open. I snapped a picture from my hotel room in Vancouver Washington. I'd be very interested to know if anyone out there is also into plane spotting, and has had trouble with law enforcement or security guards giving them grief about taking pictures, or video?NWRailfans : NWRailfans

I do quite a bit of aviation photography (see Fence Check) and have been stopped and investigated by as low as ATL (Hartsfield) Operations to having the FBI come to my work place to question me.

[DPD1]

I've gotten the boot by mil people numerous times with planes... They took everything but a blood sample. Whatever... The "terrorist threat" list probably has more people on it now than in all of NY city. The funniest ones are the guys that come out and say they've never had anybody try to take a photo there before... Even though it's a spot where you know people have been going there for decades. That's when you know they're living in some alternate dimension somewhere.

Never really had all that much trouble with rail stuff. One time I went to look at a derailment in a yard and one of the yard guys saw me driving down the road that way, shot across the double yellow and did a cop stop right in front of me. Keep in mind this is on a normal public street. He got out and came walking over to the window and asked if he could help me. Obviously he somehow knew why I was there and that was his subtle way of saying it ticked him off. I actually got pretty mad at first, but the guy looked like Stone Cold Steve Austin. So I just said; 'No... Do I look like I need help?' He just got back in the truck and took off. I kind of understood later... Nobody likes being caught in the act of a mistake. But he would have felt pretty stupid if I was just some guy driving down the street.

[icom1020]

Bert P. Krages Attorney at Law Photographer's Rights Page

[RADIOGUY2002]

Their is a huge difference between public vs private property. Private property in its own has their own rights operating as a business as oppose to a park or public designation. This is the case with rail yards as most are privately owned. And yes its hard to moved fixed structures, but some structures are top secret even though they may be an the open. You be surprised sometimes on what is where and why it is where it is. Overall, I think you get the good with the bad. I myself rather introduce myself to you and make a conversation. You might have some good information for me or see something I may have missed.

I've worked in some companies where they believe photographers are the moral sin of the world and feel that you should be stopped and called out constantly. And if you fail to stop we were told to escort you off the property and if you refused we were told to call the police. I tell you this much, its a verily big security contractor that does retail, I never really saw the point to get in someones face for photographing the every day things you would expect to be fine. And those that violate the policy I tried to be nice with them and tell them it was a management thing. Which it was, so before you beat up on the messenger realize that not all security officers, etc really want to enforce the rule, but have too to make sure they get a paycheck everyday.

The approach is what is important, but everyday in and out of receiving complaints from management makes you really angry after a while. So, on occasion guards have a tendency to snap, but it something some of us in the industry have to learn to let go and realize every situation maybe different. But, realistically not all guards have that mentality.

In any case, try to see the the other side. Not that I agree with the negative approach as it puts everybody on their wrong foot to began with.

[gewecke]

Point taken.
I have spent several years in the nuclear safety/security field. Thanks.
N9ZAS.

[jparks29]

I can derail a train in 30 seconds with some thermite that will melt through the rails....

They think a guy with a 20K$ camera and related gear is gonna be with Al-qaeda??

[rvictor]

Originally Posted by RADIOGUY2002

Their is a huge difference between public vs private property. Private property in its own has their own rights operating as a business as oppose to a park or public designation. This is the case with rail yards as most are privately owned. And yes its hard to moved fixed structures, but some structures are top secret even though they may be an the open. You be surprised sometimes on what is where and why it is where it is. Overall, I think you get the good with the bad. I myself rather introduce myself to you and make a conversation. You might have some good information for me or see something I may have missed.

I've worked in some companies where they believe photographers are the moral sin of the world and feel that you should be stopped and called out constantly. And if you fail to stop we were told to escort you off the property and if you refused we were told to call the police. I tell you this much, its a verily big security contractor that does retail, I never really saw the point to get in someones face for photographing the every day things you would expect to be fine. And those that violate the policy I tried to be nice with them and tell them it was a management thing. Which it was, so before you beat up on the messenger realize that not all security officers, etc really want to enforce the rule, but have too to make sure they get a paycheck everyday.

The approach is what is important, but everyday in and out of receiving complaints from management makes you really angry after a while. So, on occasion guards have a tendency to snap, but it something some of us in the industry have to learn to let go and realize every situation maybe different. But, realistically not all guards have that mentality.

In any case, try to see the the other side. Not that I agree with the negative approach as it puts everybody on their wrong foot to began with.

I think that you have every right to escort someone off of your or your employer's private property whether they are taking pictures or just standing there having a cigarette. My point, however, was that I am not aware of any legal basis to prohibit the taking of photographs of something which is located on private property so long as I don't encroach upon the property itself. If I'm standing on a public street or sidewalk taking pictures of railroad property, I believe that there is nothing legally that prohibits me from doing so.

I appreciate what you are saying about attitude, but the real questions are what one has a right to do and what one has a right to prohibit someone else from doing. If I am not doing something illegal and am not on your property, you have no right to interfere with what I am doing.

Dick

[gewecke]

Originally Posted by jparks29

I can derail a train in 30 seconds with some thermite that will melt through the rails....

They think a guy with a 20K$ camera and related gear is gonna be with Al-qaeda??

Be careful who you say this to. would that 30 seconds be worth ....say 30 years?
Just sayin....