AAR Narrowband Migration

[Allan_Love_Jr]

Originally Posted by PJH

With FCC narrowbanding deadline fast approaching, it's time to get cracking | Legal Matters

Holy sh*t. Your right. There not playing around.

[kc0vgj]

[CRAGGY MOUNTAIN LINES] [CML]
I would like to take a little time here to thank this site for helping me answer a few questions I had concerning the narrow banding and the digital requirements for the rail-road community. Sence we are only on a three mile track and also might aquire later in the futur 10 more miles of track and we will continue to be seprated from the mainstream train companies, we will be using business band radio service to provide communication between trains and dispatch center. Aain thanks you for your help..

[DODGEIT]

If you are using business band then you will need to narrow band the radios you are using. It depends on the actual frequencies you are going to use. Some are required to narrow band and some are not. Determine your frequencies and then determine if they have to be narrow banded.

[PJH]

By January 1, 2013: Per the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) Rule Part 90 mandate on narrowbanding, in an effort to promote greater spectrum efficiency, the FCC requires that all Public Safety and Industrial / Business licensees must operate on a 12.5 kHz channel bandwidth or better. The exception to this Part 90 narrowbanding mandate applies only for radios operating within 470-512 MHz frequencies (T-Band), which will continue to support a 25 kHz channel bandwidth. The FCC requires that a radio be certified to operate on Part 90 VHF or UHF radio systems, and that the radio-user have an FCC license to operate the radio on those frequencies.

The impacted FCC Part 90 Frequency ranges are:

VHF: 150-174 MHz, and UHF1 / UHF2: 420-469 MHz

For Conventional Communications: After the FCC mandate takes effect, specific frequencies in VHF and UHF that are not subject to Part 90 narrowbanding are still allowed to operate at 25 kHz. Examples include: Part 80 marine frequencies, Part 87 aviation frequencies, Part 95, FRS / GMRS and MURS, Part 97 amateur frequencies, and NOAA weather channels.

End of story. Nothing more to tell. The end. Game over.

[sparkz1]

Sorry to seem mentally slow, but are the new Narrowband AAR freq.s still in the 160-161 MHz band ? I seem to remember a comment here a while back over controversy about 220 MHz vs. 900 MHz
Thanks to anyone who KNOWS (forget the I thinks - you see where THINK got IBM).

[johnnymitch74]

Originally Posted by sparkz1

Sorry to seem mentally slow, but are the new Narrowband AAR freq.s still in the 160-161 MHz band ? I seem to remember a comment here a while back over controversy about 220 MHz vs. 900 MHz
Thanks to anyone who KNOWS (forget the I thinks - you see where THINK got IBM).

as of right now, all of the frequencies are the exact same as they were before the migration. I.E. in my situation, the WSOR road frequency was 160.575. After the migration, it's still 160.575, but with a narrower transmission bandwith. As of right now, no "splinter channels" (using the 7khz split) have been issues. Thus, they are all the same 97 or so frequencies within 160-161 mHz.

The 220mHz frequency allocation controversy is over Positive Train Control. 900mHz is for ATCS.

[sparkz1]

Thanks so much. Happy Holidays to you & yours.

[PJH]

900MHz is also used for locomotive downloads
UHF for DP, HOT/EOT
220 for PTC
VHF for voice

BNSF used/uses some lowband for some sort of data thing

[iceman977th]

I've been listening to CSX recently, and it seems they are still operating on the wideband channels as of yet. Are they just going to switch to the new narrowband channels come 1/1? I tried to program the supposed narrowband channels in my scanner and tried to listen, and it didn't work at all.

[PJH]

Carefully reread the thread and your question. Should be answered.

[ky_fire_man]

Originally Posted by iceman977th

I've been listening to CSX recently, and it seems they are still operating on the wideband channels as of yet. Are they just going to switch to the new narrowband channels come 1/1? I tried to program the supposed narrowband channels in my scanner and tried to listen, and it didn't work at all.

CSX has changed to narrowband.

[blaze]

Originally Posted by iceman977th

I've been listening to CSX recently, and it seems they are still operating on the wideband channels as of yet. Are they just going to switch to the new narrowband channels come 1/1? I tried to program the supposed narrowband channels in my scanner and tried to listen, and it didn't work at all.

While narrowbanding does create some new channels, narrowbanding does not require moving to them (in fact, the new RR narrowband channels aren't yet even available for use). The current narrowbanding effort by railroads simply involves switching to a lower deviation FM modulation on their existing frequencies.

A "wideband" receiver can still pick up "narrowband" transmissions. There may be a slight reduction in audio level, but it is not really possible to tell by ear whether you're getting a wideband or narrowband transmission on a wideband receiver -- both will come through fine. (Although on a proper narrowband receiver, you often *can* tell; wideband transmissions will chop out or distort on audio peaks when listening in narrowband mode).

In general, the only way to tell for sure whether a received signal is wideband or narrowband is with a service monitor or spectrum analyzer.

[iceman977th]

Well, let's put it this way...the other morning I created two banks, one with the wideband frequencies (I.E. CSX road channel AAR 08, 160.230) and the other with corresponding narrowband frequencies (AAR 108, 160.2375). AAR08 picked up clear as a bell, dispatch traffic and all...108 barely picked up anything even as a train went by...not sure if I did something wrong..

[burner50]

Originally Posted by iceman977th

Well, let's put it this way...the other morning I created two banks, one with the wideband frequencies (I.E. CSX road channel AAR 08, 160.230) and the other with corresponding narrowband frequencies (AAR 108, 160.2375). AAR08 picked up clear as a bell, dispatch traffic and all...108 barely picked up anything even as a train went by...not sure if I did something wrong..

Well, mostly, you're misunderstanding that Wideband 08 is the same frequency as narrowband 008.

Channel 108 is a different frequency and a different channel.

[iceman977th]

Originally Posted by burner50

Well, mostly, you're misunderstanding that Wideband 08 is the same frequency as narrowband 008.

Channel 108 is a different frequency and a different channel.

Yeah, I figured that one out today...I feel like a complete idiot..lol. What are those frequencies going to be for then?

[burner50]

Originally Posted by iceman977th

Yeah, I figured that one out today...I feel like a complete idiot..lol. What are those frequencies going to be for then?

More channels.

[cmpsa]

correct.... all VHF & UHF frequencies under FCC Part 90 (which is all business & all public safety) are required to be narrowbanded by 12/31/12. and that does include ALL railroad frequencies (mobile, portables & all train radios).

so no more old Motorola Spectra's anymore.. yeah...

[Allan_Love_Jr]

Originally Posted by cmpsa

correct.... all VHF & UHF frequencies under FCC Part 90 (which is all business & all public safety) are required to be narrowbanded by 12/31/12. and that does include ALL railroad frequencies (mobile, portables & all train radios).

so no more old Motorola Spectra's anymore.. yeah...

It is 1/1/2013 now and sure enough. There all on Narrow-band. Monitoring the Radio as I type this. Just heard the CN and BNSF Dispatcher and let me tell you. There is a hell of a difference in voice tone.

[johnnymitch74]

the CN might also sound funny because of its fiber-connected radio network, which sounds very distorted and tinny.

as for me, i notice no difference between the wide and narrow transmissions.

[PJH]

Many RR's have gone to IP transport in many territories. The fiber has nothing to do with it (95% of your land lines and cell goes over fiber). It's just the end equipment they use and the pm work that goes into it.