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Old 06-11-2014, 6:22 AM
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Default Quest Rail anounces EOL of analog 12RII radio

Quest Rail which took over the production of GE Transportation's manufacture and distribution of 12R radios this past year have announced the EOL of their analog version radio the 12RII. This includes both the Clean Cab and remote coach versions.
I just received quotes for new radios stating the radio will be phased out by the end of this year and replaced with the 12R3D. The12R3D is capable of the Idas digital format for ultra narrow band operation, and also includes MDC-1200 signalling for analog ID. Best I can tell is the radio still uses a Kenwood radio chassis with the MDC built in to the radios firmware instead of an additional board. Which has had a high rate of failure with us causing all kinds of problems including being stuck keyed up for hours, and or causing the radio to not completely boot up.
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Old 06-11-2014, 10:17 AM
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Idas is icons trunking protocol Nexedge is Kenwood's, but the both use the NXDN digital format. You're only programming conventional right?

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Old 06-11-2014, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by KD2BRR View Post
Idas is icons trunking protocol Nexedge is Kenwood's, but the both use the NXDN digital format. You're only programming conventional right?

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Not quite correct.

Idas and nexedge are Icom and Kenwoods trade names for NXDN. Does not matter if it is trunking or conventional.


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Old 06-11-2014, 11:37 AM
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Conventional analog for the foreseable future, as we just replaced all our radios with narrow band analog only, plus I really don't see the need for digital on the RTC channels, maybe for support channels. We have quite a few Idas repeaters running for C&S Radio Shop. The Class I's have said they are not going to go ultra narrow anytime soon since they just replaced their radios too. Since we have already gotten a boat load of 12RII that's what we are sticking with. The radio for the most part has been trouble free with the exception of the add on ANI boards, with just a few lock ups on the Clean Cabs which need to be power reset.

Quote"Idas is icoms trunking protocol"

No not really, it's the digital format that can be conventional or trunking. Icom has just released a firmware update that allows Icoms and Kenwoods to co-exist on each others trunking systems.
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Old 06-11-2014, 2:52 PM
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Well the class 1's wouldn't have to replace any radios just reprogram them, most class ones already have systems in place for the mandate. You also don't have to go ultra narrow to use digital with Kenwood radios, but you do with ICOM because they don't have narrow bandwidth just ultra on digital. The more narrow the bandwidth the crappier the signal... Still don't understand how the FCC got away with this narrow banding crap. In theory its good, but in reality it was a huge mistake, but to my point.

Ok here is why IDAS is Icom proprietary tunking and Nexedge Kenwood. The two are completely different things, but NXDN is the same throughout. You can't have an ICOM radio on a Nexedge system or a Kenwood radio on and IDAS system. The update says equitpment which means the stuff released at IWCE which still means the two protocols are completely different just that a mobile or portable radio with the software/hardware can be on either or. They are still completely different protocols for their trunked system. Now Conventional NXDN, which is the digital formats name, id like saying P25, DMR, Pro-voice, tetra, etc. For example DMR can be used conventionally on any radio with DMR capabilities, but Mototrbo is Motorola's proprietary trunking system. DMR is the digital format.

So to conclude saying that the radio is an IDAS radio is correct because it has the capabilities, but to say that the digital format is IDAS is incorrect because it is only ICOMS proprietary trunking protocol. The name of the digital format used is NXDN.

Last edited by KD2BRR; 06-11-2014 at 3:17 PM..
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Old 06-11-2014, 3:16 PM
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KD2BRR, re-read what I wrote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayn1n32008 View Post
Not quite correct.

Idas and nexedge are Icom and Kenwoods trade names for NXDN. Does not matter if it is trunking or conventional.

KD2BRR please re-read what radioman2001 wrote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radioman2001 View Post
No not really, it's the digital format that can be conventional or trunking. Icom has just released a firmware update that allows Icoms and Kenwoods to co-exist on each others trunking systems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KD2BRR View Post
here is why IDAS is Icom proprietary tunking and Nexedge Kenwood. The two are completely different things, but NXDN is the same throughout. You can't have an ICOM radio on a Nexedge system or a Kenwood radio on and IDAS system. Even with this firmware update that I haven't seen or heard of yet they have completely different protocols for their trunked system. Now Conventional NXDN, as the digital format is know, like P25, DMR, Pro-voice, tetra, etc. For example DMR can be used conventionally on any radio with DMR capabilities, but Mototrbo is Motorola's proprietary trunking system. DMR is the digital format.

So to conclude saying that the radio is an IDAS radio is correct because it has the capabilities, but to say that the digital format is IDAS is incorrect because it is only ICOMS proprietary trunking protocol. The name of the digital format used is NXDN.

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MotoTRBO is the TRADE NAME Motorola uses for DMR. The proprietary features are not what make it 'MotoTRBO' what part of this are you not understanding. Just like IDAS is Icoms trade name for NXDN and Nexedge is Kenwood trade name for NXDN. It has ZERO to do with trunking.

You are linking trade names to features above and beyond the standard, and it is not so.



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Old 06-11-2014, 3:29 PM
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They are not "Trade Names" for a digital format. The digital format has a name! You wouldn't say that an Icom radio has and nexedge digital format because thats incorrect... It is using NXDN digital format. I dont understand why you don't understand. They are trade names for the trunking system yes. Yea people will say it, but thats because they don't actually know.

Also just because the radios are compatible doesn't mean the systems are the same. It just means that portable or mobile can work on the system, but the two do not co exist.

Lets take analog trunking systems for example. Smartnet is a Motorola proprietary trunking system, but the analog format isn't called smartnet its just analog. It is the same for digital, there are just different names because there are different vocoders and emissions used.

NXDN is the digital format. To say that conventional digital on an icom radio is IDAS is wrong. Just like saying smartnet is motorolas analog format.

Trunking systems do not change the format of the signal going through the air. They change the way all of the signals are sent and received the voice isn't changed.

The whole reason I asked in the first place is because the railroads were going to stay conventional and saying that it is IDAS is saying that it is using trunking system technology and not conventional.

Last edited by KD2BRR; 06-11-2014 at 3:37 PM..
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Old 06-11-2014, 3:59 PM
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KD2BRR, re-read what I wrote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayn1n32008 View Post
Not quite correct.

Idas and nexedge are Icom and Kenwoods trade names for NXDN. Does not matter if it is trunking or conventional.

KD2BRR please re-read what radioman2001 wrote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radioman2001 View Post
No not really, it's the digital format that can be conventional or trunking. Icom has just released a firmware update that allows Icoms and Kenwoods to co-exist on each others trunking systems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KD2BRR View Post
here is why IDAS is Icom proprietary tunking and Nexedge Kenwood. The two are completely different things, but NXDN is the same throughout. You can't have an ICOM radio on a Nexedge system or a Kenwood radio on and IDAS system. Even with this firmware update that I haven't seen or heard of yet they have completely different protocols for their trunked system. Now Conventional NXDN, as the digital format is know, like P25, DMR, Pro-voice, tetra, etc. For example DMR can be used conventionally on any radio with DMR capabilities, but Mototrbo is Motorola's proprietary trunking system. DMR is the digital format.

So to conclude saying that the radio is an IDAS radio is correct because it has the capabilities, but to say that the digital format is IDAS is incorrect because it is only ICOMS proprietary trunking protocol. The name of the digital format used is NXDN.

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MotoTRBO is the TRADE NAME Motorola uses for DMR. The proprietary features are not what make it 'MotoTRBO' what part of this are you not understanding. Just like IDAS is Icoms trade name for NXDN and Nexedge is Kenwood trade name for NXDN. It has ZERO to do with trunking.

You are linking trade names to features above and beyond the standard, and it is not so.



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Old 06-12-2014, 6:56 AM
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Boy how I hate to moderate my own post. This post was about Quest Rails announcement about EOL of analog radios made by them, not a discussion about who's on first.
What you both are saying is all samantics, the way I read Icom's brochures it's a digital format and nowhere is there anything mentioned about Idas being only trunking. The information I have (which came directly from Icom) is that the Icom's and Kenwoods CAN coexist on the same system with the firmware update. I didn't get any word about whether it's trunking or not but since they could coexist in conventional before I don't why they would make a big deal about a firmware update to make them coexist. Plus we have no intention of ever going trunking for RTC so it's moot point. Besides the Class I freight and Class I non-freight which we are, have told AAR that we are NOT going digital anytime soon, so like narrow banding was, going to ultra narrow is a waste, nice idea maybe, but is not needed.
No you cannot just reprogram a radio to digital unless it was born a digital radio, and we have no rolling stock, maintainence, or support digital radios, except for radio shop, so we cannot do so. I also don't see why someone would go digital and it not be ultra narrow. The digital audio is understandable when it works, but I'll take analog any day.
The only reason we are continuing to go with the R12 series is because that's what we have. If I find an alternative I would try and buy, preferably analog. After this discussion I am leaning toward paying the extra $300.00 for analog only radios in this next order, and maybe more before they are no longer available.
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Old 06-12-2014, 9:40 AM
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Ok so like I said the only reason I asked in the first place was because like I said before IDAS is the name of the trunking protovol. When you go into the programing software and look at the transmit mode it either says analog or NXDN when programing conventional channels. When you go to program in a trunked configuration it should say IDAS. Kenwood's says NXDN trunking network. The Brochures are obviously going to give general information. If you are a radio tech you should know that.

So the reason I asked if they were going to go trunked was because you said IDAS digital which would mean a trunking system. I have seen some short lines do it already which is overkill, but they don't follow class 1 rules whatever that may be...

Lastly when I said "system" in place I wasn't talking about the technology in the field. Obviously you cant just program an analog radio to be digital I mean common. The system I was talking about is the plan they have for the mandate whenever that will be because they already have the digital capable radios in the field.

Trust me keeping it analog would save alot of trouble. Keeping away from all this narrow crap would also have been the better idea because as the bandwidth gets smaller and the power output stays the same the signal gets 20 times weaker. Its the same for every signal no matter what. That's why there's a cell tower ever quarter mile because if you didn't have that no one would have cell service, but never the less... I am all for keeping it analog, digital is cool, but there's not need in the railroad. Digital brings voice clarity and "encryption" per say from the people who don't have the listening capabilities. By encryption I mean not having the radio equipment. That's why it has even become a possibility... although the voice clarity can be fixed if they stop mandating narrowband!

Last edited by KD2BRR; 06-12-2014 at 9:49 AM..
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Old 06-13-2014, 6:12 AM
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Moderator please delete all except announcement, and lock.
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Old 06-13-2014, 5:06 PM
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IDAS is Icom's name for NXDN. End of story.

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