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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2017, 9:34 AM
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Originally Posted by RRR View Post
NS is intentionally doing it, and only for NXDN. Why not for DMR? Why not for P25? Tetra? Heck, why not add in Dstar if thats the case?

Why is everyone fighting this so much? Just because you haven't heard it, means it isn't so?
A railroad isn't going to add DMR, P25, Tetra or other modes to their licenses unless they intend to use it in a specific location. Coordination costs money, and many coordinators I deal with charge a fee for each additional mode added to a license (I don't deal with AAR so don't know how they handle it). With NXDN the approved standard for railroad use, that's what the railroad is going to license. If they intend to use P25 or another mode in a specific location, they'll either amend an existing license or obtain a new license for that specific location, but not for the entire system. No point spending money on coordinating and licensing modes they'll never use.

Otherwise, they're most likely adding NXDN to their licenses simply so they'll be ready when the time comes. Coordination and licensing costs money, so it's very likely they're doing this whenever they have to renew or update a license, as it makes sense to combine your administrative tasks to save money on filing fees.

And as others have noted, no one doubts that a switch to NXDN is eventually going to happen, but the mere fact that railroads are updating their licenses and already possess NXDN-ready equipment doesn't mean a systemwide switch to NXDN is imminent.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2017, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by radioman2001 View Post

Networked radio, Yea I seen it, and that is nothing more than replacing RTL tie line's for a Cat 5 Network. Actually it is less reliable and more expensive when dealing with outside plants like Verizon, so another reason we are staying analog until forced to digital.
Umm..... the NS networked radio system is 100% NXDN, has nothing to do with what you stated.... You seem confused, or uneducated on the subject, since you are a RR radio tech (You are a Railroad radio tech, right?) I will not go any farther with this one, except to say also that the NS police are also on a networked (encrypted) NXDN system as well. Wonder how that works, with an analog only system, as is claimed....

Not everyone is going through the AAR to get their licensing done, shortlines, contractors, etc. I love mototrbo, it would be my choice if it were my decision, 2 talkpaths per channel, better audio, Motorola ruggedness...

Regardless, I feel like I'm being baited for info here....
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Old 12-06-2017, 9:25 AM
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Here's a curveball for ya, ever heard of a "network" radio system on the Railroad? Sure ya haven't. I'm sure there is a lot that goes on out here that you aren't aware of. Matter of fact, I'm quite sure of it.

Any I see nobody has posted any background relevance. Didn't think there would be much response to that. But I don't really care. I can only dismiss some of the replies as typical armchair assumables, thinking that just because they haven't heard any wooshing sounds on their scanner, that nobody is using NXDN, right?

No sure havenít, youíre the first and only person to know about this new technology lol. Not sure why you think you are the only one who works in this industry.
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Old 12-06-2017, 3:01 PM
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Apparently I'm the only one who can answer accurately here.
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:02 PM
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RRR if you are what you say you are identify yourself. I did and what agency I work for, so lets hear it from you. Describe you systems and locations, and then a reasonable decision can be made on your claims. Also making claims that you are the only one here qualified to answer accurately is B.S.

Getting back to (NETWORKED) systems. On analog you need a RTL (Radio Tie Line) for it to work. NXDN and Mototrbo for that matter use a IP network for transport instead of a dedicated pair, though it could be a dedicated pair using DSL. It comes down to just one set of wires or another, and what you put on those wires is what differentiates analog or digital. So there is no big deal or magic about a networked system, and in fact NXDN when linked together doesn't even have the capability for a single talk group or path to transmit on a dedicated transmitter. It's all of them or none.

Believe me I know we have a large area system we use for the radio shop, and I have been asking the manufacturers to come up with a method to steer certain talk groups to certain transmitters and not waste transmitting on all of them at once when it's not needed.
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Old 12-14-2017, 1:22 PM
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Could we be talking apples and tangerines here?

Most scanner folk could care less about how it all works behind the scenes. They just want to hear the trains, detectors and dispatchers. They don't care if the network is operated on wireline, IP, smoke signals or Pony Express.

The fact is that the dispatchers, trains, detectors etc. on the mainlines of the Class Ones, regionals and most shortlines are analog FM and will be for a long time. The railfan/scanner community will have months of warning before they turn the switch to go to NXDN.

Whatever "NS networked radio system (that) is 100% NXDN" as "RRR" mentioned above is not what the railfans and scanner people are hearing on the mainline. They might be using different systems in the backhaul or behind the scenes, or in yards or for police or other specialty uses. The radio transmissions to and from the trains, the detectors and dispatchers over radio continue to be (and will be for quite some time) analog FM.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2017, 3:35 PM
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Been siting back enjoying all the posts here about NXDN, especially on the NS. So, that being said I feel it's time to chime in.

In the Chicago Area, the NS uses Channel 046 and Channel 064 on their main lines. These channels are analog. Use them many times during working hours. In fact, the only use of NXDN by the NS in the Chicago Area is on their Police Department repeater (AAR output 073).

BNSF is using analog on all of their road and maintenance of way channels throughout the US. There is some very limited (emphasis added on limited) use of NXDN in yards and maintenance facilities. All of the mobile and portable radios owned by BNSF have the NXDN channels (307-487) in them as well as most of the locomotive radios.This includes the radios in the Metra equipment (locomotives and cab cars) which BNSF operates under a purchase of service agreement with Metra. BNSF has no plans to migrate to NXDN on any main line channels.
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Old 02-04-2018, 2:59 PM
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I have read all the post about nxden on the railroads, so lets do this, go over to you tube search whistler trx 2
there you will find a video of nxden in use on the railroad in Alabama being used on the main line system.
and I have heard csx here in FLA on nxden coming into the rail yard.
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Old 02-04-2018, 4:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnk9deputy View Post
I have read all the post about nxden on the railroads, so lets do this, go over to you tube search whistler trx 2
there you will find a video of nxden in use on the railroad in Alabama being used on the main line system.
and I have heard csx here in FLA on nxden coming into the rail yard.
Dude. Read the title of the Youtube video. It says Norris YARD!

No one is saying that NXDN isn't being used for yards and shortlines.

The issue is that NXDN is NOT being used by Class 1 railroads for mainline operations such as train to dispatcher comms.

And its NXDN not NXDEN.
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Old 02-04-2018, 4:52 PM
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Simple straight answer. Yes, at some point in the distant future, NS will begin using NXDN (IDAS for the Icom users) on the main. Not any time soon. As to "in the clear", the only thing NS plans to encrypt is what has already been encrypted, NS Police. That's it. Simple as that.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 02-04-2018, 5:53 PM
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I spoke with my counterparts over at NS last week on a different issue and we were comparing notes (BSing) on other comms stuff.

Right now there is NO practical way to use anything other than analog - for mainline and some yard operations.

As stated well before, there is no user friendly or practical way to handle certain railroad operations. Yes it can and has been used for yard specific functions, but those functions are generally limited to the car department, engineering, mechanical and the such. Those departments can use it successfully due to the fact they are not operating certain RR functions that TE&Y require.

NS also has a sizeable fleet of ASTRO Spectra RR radios still in locomotives (as does CSX) and older GE radios that are not NXDN/IDAS compatible and need to be replaced.

CSX, CN, CP, KCS all have sizable fleets of cab radios that are not compatible. To run interchange or runthru, the radio must be AAR compliant - and most railroads will not go and replace the radio or the lead locomotive unless cab signals or LSL is required.

Futhermore, as touched upon above, a few companies are still trying to come up with a proper radio interface with NXDN selcodes to operate such devices to be used. These devices currently run on DTMF signaling, and railroad are not going to install CTC along main just for a dispatcher to throw a switch once a week due to sheer cost.

What C&S tells me, integrated TDD's with NXDN haven't been offered yet, as they have been using in house radios. It would be easy to use an off the shelf radio, but then again to use recall codes, your back to trying to use digital SelCall to bring them up for a TDD recall.

This is why the AAR in the committee has essentially backed off on any use of digital radio when everyone was doing the digital craze years back. The committee never fully explored the ramification of the infrastructure costs.

Since then, most railroads (major ones) have bought NXDN compatible radios for locomotives, TE&Y, vehicles as part as the replacement cycle and failure of radios in the field.

Two of the Class 1's I work with have been buying the Kenwoods - one with custom firmware (which has had issues in the past) and one just preprogrammed with the full AAR analog and digital channel numbers (as well as custom zones for the intended area in service).

So, way in short, don't plan on seeing it on the main line for a very long time on the major railroads.
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Old 02-04-2018, 6:06 PM
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Well said PJ and Ditch.

It gets old seeing these uniformed posters rambling on about needing to get a NXDN scanner or radio because they want to be able to hear the railroads in their area.

Or that they heard that the railroads are all going to NXDN soon.

One guy on here (RRR) even claimed that he worked for a Class 1 railroad and they were using NXDN on their mainline. Ha!
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Old 02-04-2018, 6:47 PM
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If you bought an NXDN radio today to listen to the railroad, odds are it would be lost/stole/broken before you'll ever need it over a regular scanner.
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Old 02-05-2018, 5:36 PM
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Pj is 100% correct.

The small RR i went back to do work for we have switched back to Analog .
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Old 02-05-2018, 5:38 PM
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You really wanna see uniformed check out the RR radio's group on the FB. I try to explain why NXDN is not happening anytime soon and get told i know nothing. My favorite is a guy who joined the group and likes to use the Digital scare tactic to sell radios. even more fun is when i explain the old lunch box will RX the narrow band just not legal to TX
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Old 02-05-2018, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitn1mcc View Post
You really wanna see uniformed check out the RR radio's group on the FB. I try to explain why NXDN is not happening anytime soon and get told i know nothing. My favorite is a guy who joined the group and likes to use the Digital scare tactic to sell radios. even more fun is when i explain the old lunch box will RX the narrow band just not legal to TX
Got a link or full fb name?

Sounds like fun
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Old 02-05-2018, 9:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Nasby View Post

One guy on here (RRR) even claimed that he worked for a Class 1 railroad and they were using NXDN on their mainline. Ha!
Where did I claim to work for a class 1 Railroad? I am a S&C contractor, and we have a lot of contracts with different companies. And yes, there is NXDN on class 1 Railroads in use everyday, even on mainlines. Could be trains, could be S&C, could be MOW, etc.. You just obviously don't know where to look. (or hear)
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Old 02-05-2018, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by PJH View Post
This is why the AAR in the committee has essentially backed off on any use of digital radio when everyone was doing the digital craze years back. The committee never fully explored the ramification of the infrastructure costs.
That and they've basically been told now that they may not "be forced down" (AAR's words) to 6.25kHz which is why it even became an issue in the first place. Which, by the way for those keeping score, was originally when this crap started supposed to be April 1st of this year. But intelligence and practicality prevailed.
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Old 02-05-2018, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRR View Post
Where did I claim to work for a class 1 Railroad? I am a S&C contractor, and we have a lot of contracts with different companies. And yes, there is NXDN on class 1 Railroads in use everyday, even on mainlines. Could be trains, could be S&C, could be MOW, etc.. You just obviously don't know where to look. (or hear)
You didn't claim it outright, but you alluded to it.

Having licenses with the emission designation does not equal use.

No Class 1 railroad is using NXDN on the main line. Not for trains, not for MOW, not for signal crews.

The reason they're not doing it yet is safety. Anyone on or near a track needs to be able to communicate with locomotives, and I have not seen anything that leads me to believe that any timetables have been updated to designate NXDN usage (Channel 300+).

So, at the end of the day, instead of insinuating that everyone else is stupid, either put up, or shut up. Provide proof of your claim, or drop the issue.
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Old 02-05-2018, 10:46 PM
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That and they've basically been told now that they may not "be forced down" (AAR's words) to 6.25kHz which is why it even became an issue in the first place. Which, by the way for those keeping score, was originally when this crap started supposed to be April 1st of this year. But intelligence and practicality prevailed.
The major problem is that one vendor decided that NXDN could be used at 12.5, and the other require 6.25kHz. It was silly 11 years ago, and it's silly now.
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