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  #221 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2013, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyC View Post
I think it would be seriously foolish for any public safety to rely on Sprint, AT&T or Verizon networks to conduct mission critical operations. It would also make no sense to move private stuff to those networks, when there is already infrastructure in place with encryption options if needed.
And i totally agree, however, if what you`re tryin` to do is just get ridda that nasty scanner listener/streamer, that would kinda work, one, the scanner dude could look and look but never find out where they went, and two, even if they (the scanner listeners) ever DID find out where they went, ya couldn`t even listen to it as first, it`s illegeal, and two, the mode used is unmonitorable anyway. But i do see your point completly. N9NRA
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  #222 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2013, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by N9NRA View Post
Another thought i just had, as some of ya may/may not know, there`s a filling going on with the FCC that was started by a ham, he wants to relax the restriction on encryiption in the bands to allow more use of it, but we already have unmonitorable modes (DSTAR, motoTURBO, and NXDN) that we can use, same thingy as i was sayin` in my post, the LEO`s already HAVE a secure way of doing the "we don`t wanna have the scanner listener/streamer listening to comms" thingy, in short, want to pass private comms? Use the cell, it can`t be monitored. Like i said, i`m not saying using the radio goes away, in fact it dosen`t, BUT, ya don`t need ENC in the radio when ya already have secure comms right there in that cellphone, that`s all. N9NRA P.S. Same thingy with us hams, we don`t need that ENC thingy ether, we already have good ways to do the private comms thingy, to wit, the modes i`ve mentioned, and cellullar.
Simple answer:

Because when something is going down, they want EVERYONE in that talkgroup/area/precinct to be able to hear it in real time.

When a cop is in a foot pursuit, he hits the transmit button on the remote mic clipped to his epaulet. While running at full speed and watching out for the suspect to pull a gun or knife. There is no time or dexterity to pull out a cell phone and hit a talk button and wait for a tone.

Cell phones and Nextel type comms are great for communicating information, but for operations in the field on active calls you need a radio system that all the affected responders can hear at the same time without pushing buttons or manipulating anything.

This is not an endorsement of encryption. My local PD has gone encrypted and I hate it.

But as a retired LEO I can tell you that only an actual radio system works in the field. Everyone in my talk group has to hear everything I say and everything I am told.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by N9NRA View Post
And for the most part what you`re sayihg is accepted. But i have heard of some city (big city) PD`s that have whole sections of their department using what i used to know as Nextel Direct Connect, or NDC. Now how hard would that be to just set up some talkgroups on that? I do know Sprint, and i believe AT&T, and also Verizon have really good cellullar "PTT" (cellullar two-way-radio) offerings out there, i do use the Sprint offering and find it really nice for discussing amateur radio stuff that i might not want everyone else to hear (repeater codes, certian freqs and such, and for getting a long QSO off a repeater once in a while ). What ya think? N9NRA
It would need to be the size of a radio and have a remote mic with a transmit button. Because it would be used in times of emergency, which means that there is no time to pull it out of a pocket or case and it can NOT be fragile. Police radios take a major beating and keep on ticking. I have used my radio as a, lets say, defensive tool, at times. Can't do that with a cell phone and expect it to work.

So, if we needs something the size of a radio, as tough as a radio, with a remote mic that is weather proof, and loud enough to hear over the sound of sirens, storms, screams etc. MIGHT AS WELL USE A RADIO!

Besides which, relying on a cellular service provider for dispatch is nuts. After Sandy we did not have cell service for days.

Even if the PD loses it's trunking, fallback is conventional. Even if they lose the repeater, the car units put out enough watts to have some range, and for sure they have portable repeaters that could be brought to an outage and used with their radios in fallback conventional mode.

What do you do with a cell phone when the towers lose electricity or the network goes down. Or when there is a disaster and you can not get a line?

Here in NY, 911 showed that cell service is not suitable for emergency transmission use. Phones were out in some areas for a long period of time. Police radio was not affected.
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  #224 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2013, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by scosgt View Post
It would need to be the size of a radio and have a remote mic with a transmit button. Because it would be used in times of emergency, which means that there is no time to pull it out of a pocket or case and it can NOT be fragile. Police radios take a major beating and keep on ticking. I have used my radio as a, lets say, defensive tool, at times. Can't do that with a cell phone and expect it to work.

So, if we needs something the size of a radio, as tough as a radio, with a remote mic that is weather proof, and loud enough to hear over the sound of sirens, storms, screams etc. MIGHT AS WELL USE A RADIO!

Besides which, relying on a cellular service provider for dispatch is nuts. After Sandy we did not have cell service for days.

Even if the PD loses it's trunking, fallback is conventional. Even if they lose the repeater, the car units put out enough watts to have some range, and for sure they have portable repeaters that could be brought to an outage and used with their radios in fallback conventional mode.

What do you do with a cell phone when the towers lose electricity or the network goes down. Or when there is a disaster and you can not get a line?

Here in NY, 911 showed that cell service is not suitable for emergency transmission use. Phones were out in some areas for a long period of time. Police radio was not affected.
True, and accepted. It also points up that there`s REALLY no good solution to this, i for one don`t want to see encryption used more than it already is, or for more than it was intended. However i do see your point . N9NRA
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  #225 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2013, 5:47 PM
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My point was not about encryption, I hate that.

It was that cell phones have a use in Law Enforcement, but for local police, fire and EMS there will always be radio.
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  #226 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2013, 11:10 AM
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Well folks, there`s at least ONE service that WON`T be encryipting anytime soon...and that`s the Amateur Radio service, just read the email alert from the ARRL on it (i just wish i could post it here for ya`ll to read too, but i guess i can`t, mod please let me inow if i can ), basically the FCC more-or-less said a big loud "NO!" to hams doing the ENC thingy, comments in opposition outnumbered supporters better than 2 to 1. N9NRA P.S. Just saw it a short time ago and still have the email if anyone wants to see it, just pm me and i can forward it to ya.
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  #227 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2013, 12:17 AM
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Why encrypt the electric or gas company? Why isn't trunkin digital good enough. Encryption had to cost a bundle and I'm sure that's on mine and your bills. I can understand the police but who's shooting at the electric man. It'd seem to me they would want me to know when they are repairing the line so I don't accidentally electrocute them with my generator.
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  #228 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2013, 3:32 PM
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Default Proof this site is destroying the hobby!

and this will continue to happen until their nothing to listen to.


D.C. Fire and EMS planning to encrypt its radio channels - DC News FOX 5 DC WTTG


thanks alot
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  #229 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2013, 11:22 PM
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Yup this has been beat over so many times theres nothing left-
Theres no doubt technology is leading into encryption and no doubt online steaming is accelerating that but that is only one factor it was only inevitable encryt would gain in popularity, "9/11" this new security cloud- its now the game of how long they will hold out before the inevitable happens
Without a doubt all major cities will become encrypted in the near future, maybe sooner, maybe longer than some of us expect.
Without a doubt we all agree this new era of "Security" has sure driven monies to applicable parties
Yes, this site will slowly suck up the attention of radio network admins but also gets attention from new comers who put up online streams. There may be a time when most of the united states towns and cities emergency radio networks will be covered on one of these streaming sites.
Come back 5 years from now and we'll see what has happened as a result

Last edited by chrismol1; 11-25-2013 at 11:25 PM..
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  #230 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2013, 1:22 AM
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again? another ranter? must we go over this again?

yeah okay, there is like a 20-30 second if not MORE between the actuall moment the live radio traffic goes out, to the time it comes out over the cellphone/mediaplayer/whatever the device may be.


not very wise to use if you want the edge on the law.


*Shakes Head and rolls eyes*



OH BTW: where does it say ANYWHERE on that article about radioreference or broadcastify?


just for stinks and giggles to the OP, who is siding with collegues........ my reply to the article





sorry, but this is a misleading article.. it takes almost 20-30 seconds if not more to get the audio feed from the live broadcast filtered through the net to a carrier, to the device. soo yeah, if someone wanted tactical advantage, using a streaming app is NOT going to give you any advantage, but a pure disadvantage of upto 1/2 to a full minute of delay. look at how many people have been caught trying to use said apps, only to get screwed over by them. do some research to the REAL reason behind encryption......because it has NOTHING to do with handheld scanner apps. you want real time tactical listening, get a REAL scanner. this is what the GOV wants to put into the minds of the unknowing public.
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  #231 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2013, 7:21 AM
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I think for some agencies, the fact alone they are being monitored (regardless of 30-second delay) is what bothers them.

My Canadian city went encrypted because they claimed:

- Media was abusing the scanner (not really; they were doing their jobs)
- Whackers were showing up at some scenes with scanners-in-hand;
- Organized crime/street gangs were listening in, and using this to their advantage (true)
- Unauthorized online streaming

The reality is, analog police dispatch did not need to go P25/encrypted, as officers already had P25/AES-256 talkgroups for their speciality units, such as gang, vice, drugs, homicide, etc.

We also live in the city with the highest-per-capita crime-rate in Canada, all thanks to our thriving aboriginal population. The cops wanted to hide the fact that crime is on the increase from the media. That way, they only have to put WHAT THEY WANT in the daily press releases, not what the media inquires about, after hearing it on the scanner.

There are many reasons for agencies going full-time crypto. I agree police need the ability to have secure communications at tactical scenes/standoffs, raids, surveillance, etc. But dispatch really doesn't need to be encrypted.

Times are changing. That's foh sho.
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  #232 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2013, 7:27 AM
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just makes you think illegal or not in the near future that someone will figure out how to decrypt this encryption and learn how to put it in a scanner if more and more agencies go over to it SOMEONE will figure out some way to decrypt it in the way that people figured out how to decode data on Motorola and p25 systems
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  #233 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2013, 7:51 AM
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Originally Posted by reconrider8 View Post
just makes you think illegal or not in the near future that someone will figure out how to decrypt this encryption and learn how to put it in a scanner if more and more agencies go over to it SOMEONE will figure out some way to decrypt it in the way that people figured out how to decode data on Motorola and p25 systems
Your comment has merit, but it's absolutely dependent on the algorithm which is in-use. There are three mainstream algorithms (there are others, but these are 99.9% of what's in use) which are used to encrypt P25 comms:

Advanced Digital Privacy (ADP): 40-bit, RC-4 cipher (RSA) -- About 1,100,000,000,000 possible keys. Doable on a home computer, but it would take some time.

DES-OFB: 64-bit (56-bit usable). About 72,000,000,000,000 possible keys. DES-crackers are already out there, and can be built with high-end video cards (GPUs) which run in parallel. There are "crackers" which can yield a key in 3 seconds, and others which can take up to 3 weeks. It's totally doable.

AES-256 (256-bit). Not doable in our lifetime. We just don't have the CPU resources or electricity available, to conduct a realistic brute-force attack against a 256-bit AES key. There will be a lot of lamers who will argue with me, but everyone should familiarize themselves with just HOW BIG (key space) a 256-bit key atually is. Here's a good, dumbed-down writeup:

Guess why we’re moving to 256-bit AES keys | Agile Blog

---

"There's got to be another way". There is. And it involves hardware security. I will not elaborate further, but there are methods of extracting keys from the radios. I have done it myself, as proof-of-concept. It works by cloning the "key database". The actual key is not revealed (it remains encrypted, within the database) but it is reusable. There are ways to mitigate against cloning attack, but many system admins do not take those steps. Some of the steps aren't practical, as they create impractical officer safety issues. (key retention, passwords, etc.)

Don't forget scanners don't allow for the input of encryption keys, so "scanners" are useless as receivers for this purpose.

In certain countries, there are CRIMINAL consequences to monitoring encrypted communications, as an unauthorized third-party. I'm pretty sure the majority of hobbyists couldn't keep their mouths' shut if they were monitoring encrypted comms.
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  #234 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2013, 6:03 PM
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Default 256 bit

God help anyone who thinks he can decrypt anything beyond ADP but if you can get a hacker tool to get into Target's data this should be doable. Lord what's next encrypted kids walkie talkies to guard against child predators.
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  #235 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2013, 9:48 AM
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God help anyone who thinks he can decrypt anything beyond ADP but if you can get a hacker tool to get into Target's data this should be doable. Lord what's next encrypted kids walkie talkies to guard against child predators.
Ya know, that`s not a far strech (encryipted walkie-talkies for kids to gaurd aganst the molesters). While i think that`s a bit over the top, i can see some folks flocking to buy one just `cause they think it`ll keep the young`uns safe. Yeah right, if there`s a lock, there`s someone who can pick it (coind that when i was back in highschool ). N9NRA
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  #236 (permalink)  
Old 12-30-2013, 6:37 PM
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Default I guess my question has been answered.....

I read many of the posts on this thread out of curiosity to see if MAYBE there had been any reported progress with scanner development regarding encryption. Since many of the agencies that I used to monitor in the area encrypted including one where one son is an officer and another is a dispatcher along with the agency that my wife works for going to encrypt within the next year I am getting the impression that my HP-1 will end up going the way of other scanners that I have owned that being a high dollar paperweight.....

I am not a tecky by any means and just enjoy listening to the scanner which I have done for over 20 years. I bought the Home Patrol due to it's ease of programming especially when traveling. Overall it has served me well but it has it limitations just as all of the other scanners out there do.

I live in the DC Metro area and can scan a variety of agencies although PG County and DC are no longer available and in fact I doubt it will be very long before my county will encrypt leaving me to listen to the sanitation department, animal control and leaf pick-up folks.

Wondering how long it will be before all of the Fire/Rescue stuff in the area is encrypted?

Anyway, by reading the posts on this thread "I guess my question has been answered".....
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Old 12-30-2013, 7:06 PM
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I hear you Dave. I want one of the new Uniden's coming out, but I'm afraid of how long we'll be able to get to use them.
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  #238 (permalink)  
Old 12-30-2013, 7:17 PM
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I hear you Dave. I want one of the new Uniden's coming out, but I'm afraid of how long we'll be able to get to use them.
A number of years ago a dropped 450+ on a really neat Uniden scanner but wasn't digital, although the best out there at the time. I had it 6 months and all of the agencies that I listened to went digital and I ended up selling it on eBay for half of what I paid. So here I am again kind of in the same boat but willing to pay the bucks if someone comes up with one that will work.....
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  #239 (permalink)  
Old 12-30-2013, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave1586 View Post
I read many of the posts on this thread out of curiosity to see if MAYBE there had been any reported progress with scanner development regarding encryption. Since many of the agencies that I used to monitor in the area encrypted including one where one son is an officer and another is a dispatcher along with the agency that my wife works for going to encrypt within the next year I am getting the impression that my HP-1 will end up going the way of other scanners that I have owned that being a high dollar paperweight.....

I am not a tecky by any means and just enjoy listening to the scanner which I have done for over 20 years. I bought the Home Patrol due to it's ease of programming especially when traveling. Overall it has served me well but it has it limitations just as all of the other scanners out there do.

I live in the DC Metro area and can scan a variety of agencies although PG County and DC are no longer available and in fact I doubt it will be very long before my county will encrypt leaving me to listen to the sanitation department, animal control and leaf pick-up folks.

Wondering how long it will be before all of the Fire/Rescue stuff in the area is encrypted?

Anyway, by reading the posts on this thread "I guess my question has been answered".....
Dont worry about fire and rescue encrypting. The trend is not on the Fire EMS side, just on LE side.

Cities and Counties has been in agreement that they need to keep half of the talkgroups open and it usually is public works, lifeguards city services and fire and rescue. Maybe one day there will be some computer programmer that will hack encryption and we will be-able to use software to listen to PD again.

DMR and NXDN has been proven to be broken with software driven radios thru using your computer with a 20 dollar dongle. I have used it and it works pretty good with the new DSD software out now.
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  #240 (permalink)  
Old 12-30-2013, 9:31 PM
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DMR, NXDN, DSD? 20 dollar dongle? You lost me really quick! Like I said I am not a tecky so all of the acronyms are like a foreign language to me.....sounds to me like a cable from my laptop to the scanner with a decoding program will allow me to listen to what I want to.

Yes, No, Maybe? If you want please PM for further discussion.
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