Encryption vs LODD

[zerg901]

FBI reports 72 Law Enforcement Officers killed in the line of duty in 2011 - Boston Top News | Examiner.com

72 police killed feloniously in the USA in 2011

If all police communications are encrypted for "officer safety", then at best, 72 lives will be saved. At worst, millions could die in genocides or such. (A glaring current example of a police state meltdown is Syria where IIRC 30,000 have died in 2012. Libya was a previous example.)

(This is a followup to the thread about the Riverside County Calif police radio system updates that might include encryption - per the thread).

[KE4ZNR]

Yay! Yet another encryption thread which will result in no agency changing their minds about whether or not they choose to encrypt their comms.
Marshall KE4ZNR

[zerg901]

Marshall - if you can tell the future with full confidence, then grab a couple of lottery tickets for me - will ya?

[Redneck0410]

With all the agencies switching to encryption for "secure" communications, tell all of us how that will help save lives. Idiots are still going to have negative contacts with law enforcement, officers are still going to be shot, stabbed, hit by vehicles, etc. Lives will still be lost regardless of whether or not the radios which they would use to summon help are encrypted. God forbid their radios accidently switch channels to a frequency which the dispatch center cannot receive because their consoles are only set to recieve certain frequencies. Then what? Bleeding heart boneheads are going to be calling for the radio manufacturer's heads because a life was lost and help was not summoned immediately... Because the dispatcher was not aware there was a problem, even though the officer was trying to summon help. Law enforcement in this country needs the help of the American public to effectively do their jobs. If they didn't, they wouldn't ask for it. There's a difference between "rubbernecking" and saving a dying officer's life. If radio communications were encrypted, how would the American public know there is an issue that the police would need their help with? Surely you wouldn't depend on broadcast media or Facebook to get updates. Give me one good reason (not having to do with RR or BCFY audio feeds) why law enforcement's radios MUST be encrypted? There's not one, other than slick-talking salesmen who say their technology is the best, and municipalities that are too stupid to do their research on what technology would suit their agencies the best. Now that I have finished my rant, feel free to pick apart my post and call me an idiot or what you will for not knowing what I'm talking about. I'm honestly getting sick and tired of a few people trying to call for the heads of those in power at RR and BCFY and trying to shut down the audio feeds. It's not going to happen, folks. In case you're wondering, I'm in favor of officer safety, but if people think the only way to accomplish that is full encryption, you're sorely mistaken.

[rafdav]

and no where could I find a referrence to some one using a scanner, thus being able to kill a LEO.
Zerg901 did I read your post incorrectly or what?
"If all police communications are encrypted for "officer safety", then at best, 72 lives will be saved."

[kayn1n32008]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.600 Mobile Safari/534.8+)

Wether or not Lindsay/RR/BCFY like it, RR IS the reason my local police are going to go to ProVoice. They were 'ok' with scanner listeners, it was the sensitive ops talk groups are encrypted (PV W/DES). Once they found their analog DISPATCH comms on RR the wheels were put into motion to go to Provoice on ALL police talk groups. The reason for this was that a scanner and programming it were a "barrier to entry" once any yahoo with a smart phone was able to acess the analog dispatch comms they felt it became an officer safety issue and the wheels were put into motion.

[MikeOxlong]

Are you sure they're going Provoice? I didn't think Harris even offered it anymore.

Wait until somebody sets up DSD on their new Provoice system and starts streaming their comm's.

[newsnick175]

Encryption will not protect a police officer responding to crimes of passion where the most deadly violence occurs. It won't protect officers responding to traffic collisions. It won't protect officers responding to barking dog complaints! It won't protect police officers in 99% of their daily work!

The only time it might be of benefit is in surveillance and under cover investigations.

No police agency can point to an actual string of crimes that they will admit are being perpetrated by actors using police scanners or smart phone aps to elude capture! They would be laughed at by every other LEA in the country.

The only possible help to law breakers a police scanner could be, is in breaking and entry and property crimes. By the nature of that crime, getaways are the key to success. Also by nature, property crimes are not violent. Crooks aren't going to have a gun battle with police over some stolen flat screens and DVD players. No way! All that stuff is covered by insurance anyway.

So encryption exists for all the wrong reasons on routine precinct level communications. The only way the trend toward encryption can be halted is by Supreme Court decision or Constitutional Amendment. It's the citizens right to know what and how their police are doing their jobs. And, yes, even in real time. Especially in real time!

[kayn1n32008]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.600 Mobile Safari/534.8+)

Originally Posted by MikeOxlong

Are you sure they're going Provoice? I didn't think Harris even offered it anymore.

Wait until somebody sets up DSD on their new Provoice system and starts streaming their comm's.

Apparently they are supporting it for our cities system. I doubt anyone here will stream with DSD, will not stream PV comms. we have better judgement... Now I just wish IC would make an example of just ONE person streaming law enforcement...

[Sportster77]

The majority of Officers killed and injured in the line of duty are the results of motor vehicle accidents.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/OfficerDown?fref=pb

This area just had an Officer killed while responding to a call with lights and sirens on and an on comming truck turned left in front of his cruiser causing him to hit a tree.

Scanners will have no effect on the major cause of Officer deaths!

[JoeyC]

Law enforcement laughs at threads like this. Contrary to popular scanner listener belief, 90% of police work is not handled over the airwaves. You guys should look beyond the surface, really.

[Jim41]

A look at the data:
72 officers feloniously killed in the line of duty:
- 23 in arrest situations
- 15 ambushed
- 11 in traffic pursuits or stops
- 9 in tactical situations
- 7 during domestic calls
- 5 while investigating suspicious persons or circumstances
- 1 while conducting an investigation
- 1 while holding or transporting a prisoner

In some of these situations (ambush, investigating suspicious persons / circumstances, tactical situations) a scanner may have given the felon an edge.
In some others (arrest, domestic calls) the data is ambiguous on the scanner issue.
In others (traffic pursuits/stops, conducting an investigation, transporting a prisoner) a scanner would have given no advantage to the felon.

63 of these officers were killed by firearms. 46 of them were wearing body armor at the time.

In addition to the 72 deaths, another 53 officers were killed in job related accidents. Traffic accidents were the most common cause. Other causes: fall, airplane crash.

More details can be found at the following URL: FBI — Homepage

Jim41

[desert-cheetah]

They are "seriously" blaming all 72 deaths on criminals using scanners? What a joke! Several of our last line-of-duty deaths that weren't motor vehicle related (not sure we had any mv related) were as a result of ambush. Someone does something wrong. Someone calls 9-1-1. Bad guy knows cops are on their way so he lays low until their arrival then opens fire. Bad guys don't need scanners for that.

[newsnick175]

If one looks beyond the surface, you'll find that encryption of day to day precinct level communications will not increase the safety of police officers. What it does do is stimulate the radio manufacturing business, and our tax dollars will keep a lot of "Made in China" people employed!

[ecps92]

I agree, we [Hobbyists] can stomp our feet / roll on the floor whining / 2nd guessing [ which the OP loves to do ] agencies all we want, but some folks need to remember [and repeat after me, while clicking their ruby-red slippers] "This is a Hobby, This is a Hobby, This is a Hobby"

Originally Posted by KE4ZNR

Yay! Yet another encryption thread which will result in no agency changing their minds about whether or not they choose to encrypt their comms.
Marshall KE4ZNR

[quarterwave]

Any benefit from encryption can be offset by a negative from the public and other agencies being able to hear your traffic. If you "go dark" with your City PD, and the Sheriff's Office can no longer hear you....you can't get help from them as quickly. If you monitor each other, you can help each other quicker than dispatchers calling each other on the phone...lag time. Encryption has it's positives....but it's not all positives.

[gr8rcall]

Originally Posted by MikeOxlong

Are you sure they're going Provoice? I didn't think Harris even offered it anymore.

Wait until somebody sets up DSD on their new Provoice system and starts streaming their comm's.

Setting up DSD would be all they would have to do!

[kayn1n32008]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.600 Mobile Safari/534.8+)

Originally Posted by gr8rcall

Setting up DSD would be all they would have to do!

Nobody I know will stream our local LE comms. We have more respect for our police services' wishes. A local fellow approached police/fire/ems a few years ago about streaming their comms. Fire and EMS said "ok" but asked that certain TG NOT be streamed. Police flatly refused to allow their comms to be streamed. All was fine until JB(name withheld) decided to stream police comms. Once they got wind of the ease of which their comms could be heard the wheels of PV was put into motion.

If someone streams my local LE PV comms, you can be assured that fulltime encryption on ALL talk groups would follow rather quickly.

[ts548]

Originally Posted by zerg901

FBI reports 72 Law Enforcement Officers killed in the line of duty in 2011 - Boston Top News | Examiner.com

72 police killed feloniously in the USA in 2011

If all police communications are encrypted for "officer safety", then at best, 72 lives will be saved. At worst, millions could die in genocides or such. (A glaring current example of a police state meltdown is Syria where IIRC 30,000 have died in 2012. Libya was a previous example.)

(This is a followup to the thread about the Riverside County Calif police radio system updates that might include encryption - per the thread).

This has to be the most idiotic statement I've heard.

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by desert-cheetah

They are "seriously" blaming all 72 deaths on criminals using scanners?

Nobody with any professional credibility is blaming criminals with scanners on these 72 deaths. Only paranoid scanner hobbyists. Most hobbyists have only the vaguest of comprehension as to why agencies chose to encrypt, and they only see the threat to their hobby.