Many of the police moving to encryption

[Forts]

There is a big difference though between comms going digital and the scanner manufacturers catching up and encryption. Decoding digital is fine and dandy, but breaking encryption is flat out illegal. Bottom line is encrypted comms will never be 'circumvented' in any scanner. Once an agency is encrypted you won't hear them again unless (a) they want you to, (b) you are permitted to or (c) you and your underground friends find a way to crack it and stay quiet about it.

[Ronaldski]

Due to the proliferation of this site and the scanner feeds every tom dick & harry, every hoo hah can listen in. As much as this site promoted scanners, it is also forcing depts all over to encrpyt. Anyone with a smart phone can listen in including any crook. This is the primary reason why.

[EJB]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9360; en) AppleWebKit/534.11+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/7.1.0.391 Mobile Safari/534.11+)

Originally Posted by car55

I have notice many of police in Canada and very much so police in Ontario seem to be moving to encryption. The Ottawa police ,Hamiton police ,London police and Halton police all have moved to full time encryption and there is no scanner out there that can pick them up .

Why is this the case in Canada and why the move? What other police have moved to encryption? In 5 to 10 years from now are there only going be two or three police forces that have not moved to encryption.

For the most part the US have not moved so big like is in Canada.Could be other things why it the case in Canada and not like it in the US.

Also I seen errors in the data base saying Ottawa police having 10 divition or dispatch but I thought it is only 4? Other errors Hamiton police 3 divition or dispatch and thought it was 4 .

The London police have been using full time encryption for some time and by the end of the year Ottawa police and Hamiton police wull be full time encryption .

FYI: Hamilton had 3 divisions, correctly identified in the DB: Central, East, and Mountain/Dundas (which included areas like Flamboro and Waterdown).

As for encryption, I wish these rants about it would stop. They serve no purpose.

Finally, to anyone concerned about police activities regarding radio systems and your "$", write your city councillor, look up minutes about spending, do something instead of moaning about what already hapenned in London, Halton and Hamilton and what might happen in Toronto, Peel and wherever.

[bigcam406]

delete this post

[bigcam406]

Originally Posted by exkalibur

It's been in motion for years, nobody is disputing that. My point is that they can't just make the switch tomorrow.

read my post,i said 2014

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by KB2ZY0

I think that this adverserial relationship between public saftey radio and the scanning comunity is getting rediculus.

I'm not sure that I sense an "adversarial relationship" between public safety agencies and scanner listeners. It's more indifference, at least on the part of public safety radio people. In other words, what they do is not out of any consideration of scanner users. Encryption happens for a number of reasons. Keeping it from hobbyists is at the very bottom of the list - if it's on the list at all.

[KB2ZY0]

What drives me so crazy about this move to emcryption is that goverments can spend tons of money on this crap (Encryption isn't free, you know) yet they won't spend penny one on hiring new police officers or upgrading thier rolling stock, or even on saftey equipment.

In a time where money for these departments is critical, it seems to me that spending any money at all on further encryption doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also, it's been proven time and again that encryption technology is more expensive to maintain, and has a much higher failure rate than Analouge systems. Do the math.

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by KB2ZY0

What drives me so crazy about this move to emcryption is that goverments can spend tons of money on this crap (Encryption isn't free, you know) yet they won't spend penny one on hiring new police officers or upgrading thier rolling stock, or even on saftey equipment.

Funding for new radio equipment, and funding for personnel frequently comes from different sources. It's possible, for example, to get grant funding to buy radios, but that money can't be used to hire people. There are other grants that are available to use for training and hiring people, but if an agency can't show how they'll pay for the new hires several years into the future, they won't hire at all.

Originally Posted by KB2ZY0

In a time where money for these departments is critical, it seems to me that spending any money at all on further encryption doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

In most new digital systems, encryption capability is becoming more integral to the hardware, and becomes essentially a firmware upgrade to implement. It's not as expensive to add to an already large expensive system as you'd think.

Originally Posted by KB2ZY0

Also, it's been proven time and again that encryption technology is more expensive to maintain, and has a much higher failure rate than Analouge systems. Do the math.

Proven by whom? What is your source?

The fact of the matter is, most new systems going in will be P25 compliant. There are several reasons for this. One is funding. All federal grants are now requiring new radio systems to be P25 compliant. So, if you want federal help paying for your $100 million system, it WILL be P25. Or at least the hardware will be capable of it.

Customer demands are also forcing a move to digital. Agencies are demanding operational features in their radios that can only be provided by digital systems. Whether the demand is for more talk channels per unit of spectrum, or data capability, or encryption, or AVL, or any number of other available features, digital systems are the best and cheapest way to implement them. And once you've gone digital, encryption becomes a relatively easy thing to do.

[car55]

Originally Posted by mrozitis

Toronto is a done deal but that money was approved four years ago and all Toronto police, fire, ems have the new radios already but they are just operating in analog mode until the P25 is finished. One thing to remember is there is no money for operational/employees but always money for capital budget, two very different things.

The only question with Toronto is if all services will be ENC or just the police, Hamilton went ENC for everything from police, fire, works, animal control, others just ENC the police.

Do you have source?

Also a type of digital like ProVoice no scanner can pick up is different than encryption .

What is the difference of capital budget than operational/employees budget ? And who paying for this the feds?

[VE6E0]

Capital budget would be infrastructure, such as buildings, vehicles, communication systems. All are assets, which have long term lifes. They will be depreciated over their lifespan, though most probably the service will use whatever class they are in the capital cost allowance. Operational/employees would be expensed as their costs incur. When you have look at the cost of an employer, you have to factor in cost of benefits, employer taxes (example would be the employer Ontario health tax at 1.5% of gross earnings), CPP, Ei, etc. For a quick and dirty number, it is usually 45% of the employee gross income in most private sector enterprises, may be higher in public sector with the retirement packages. (one reason why the OPPA protects their retirement plan, as the government of Ontario sees it as big liabilty in the future)

In Toronto's case, I am not sure if they got federal money, but probably did. Was told Cornwall got federal money for their system.

[gary123]

Add Stratford and Oxford county to the encrypted list.

I agree with Forts drop encryption on everyday communications the public has a right to know what our police are doing. Encrypt narcotics etc and provide heavy fines for using the communications recieved for illegal purposes.

[car55]

gary123 There is difference of switch to digital a scanner can't pick up than switch to encryption .

London switch to encryption where Halton region police and Hamilton police may have switch to digital a scanner can't pick up than encryption .

[Jay911]

My nec208 to English dictionary is misplaced... but London, Halton, and Hamilton are all using standard P25 systems. What gary123 is saying is truly sensitive communications like undercover operations and targeted enforcement should be encrypted, but the regular general duty channels for patrol officers going to noise complaints, barking cats, a truck full of potatoes blocking the highway, etc., should be in the clear, and most people agree with that.

[zz0468]

Originally Posted by Jay911

My nec208 to English dictionary is misplaced...

LOL!

I wonder who else gets the joke.

[dcubed]

Originally Posted by kirk23

the sign of the times post 9/11...

Toronto is heading that way..
here in Quebec... Montreal just purchased a new communication system with encryption slated to be up & running by 2015..

S.Q. (Quebec Provincial Police) are slowly migrating to the NEW RENIR system also encrypted..
Transport Quebec is already using it.

Laval Police & Fire are encryted..

Longueuil Police is encrypted..Fire is still in the clear..

all major cities in Canada (and alot of the U.S.) are headed the same way...

Longueuil Police are not encrypted at this time... RR has a feed Longueuil Police Live Scanner Audio Feed

[crashoverride1]

Ok new here, so why would the police,fire,ems go to a realy pricy system that is known to fail in surtan buildens and mountantans getting in the way of line of sight and short rang? Why not stay on vhf/uhf system with encryption opion? Not a fan of encryption...

[com501]

Because your tax dollars are paying for it.

[mikepdx]

Many agencies encrypt simply because they can,
though they may have never experienced a problem
involving criminals using a scanner in the
commission of a crime.
The fact that it could happen is enough justification in their minds.
They feel as if they must cover all of their bases, and they do.

They might also be afraid of civil cases.
Like a plaintiff who claims XXX wouldn't have
happened to them in one way or another
if official communications were not out in the open.
A plaintiff just needs one sympathetic
jury with tunnel vision to win a civil judgement.

Originally Posted by Jay911

truly sensitive communications like undercover operations
and targeted enforcement should be encrypted, but the regular general duty channels...should be in the clear

Exactly. That is the proper balance.

[James_Bond_007]

or in the case of many jurisdictions to hide criminal activity committed by the police. i know this is why Tuscaloosa PD and S/O both encrypted. this isn't hearsay but from things i witnessed and heard myself when i lived there.

[Heterodyne]

Originally Posted by James_Bond_007

or in the case of many jurisdictions to hide criminal activity committed by the police. i know this is why Tuscaloosa PD and S/O both encrypted. this isn't hearsay but from things i witnessed and heard myself when i lived there.

Assuming, of course, that dirty cops openly talk about their nefarious deeds on two-way radios.