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Old 12-07-2012, 6:39 PM
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Question Many of the police moving to encryption

I have notice many of police in Canada and very much so police in Ontario seem to be moving to encryption. The Ottawa police ,Hamiton police ,London police and Halton police all have moved to full time encryption and there is no scanner out there that can pick them up .

Why is this the case in Canada and why the move? What other police have moved to encryption? In 5 to 10 years from now are there only going be two or three police forces that have not moved to encryption.

For the most part the US have not moved so big like is in Canada.Could be other things why it the case in Canada and not like it in the US.

Also I seen errors in the data base saying Ottawa police having 10 divition or dispatch but I thought it is only 4? Other errors Hamiton police 3 divition or dispatch and thought it was 4 .

The London police have been using full time encryption for some time and by the end of the year Ottawa police and Hamiton police wull be full time encryption .
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Old 12-07-2012, 7:25 PM
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Hello.

I have stated my personal opinion on encryption before on Radioreference and that is that encryption in London, Ontario is almost completely 'unnecessary' except in homicide cases and cases involving children. The tax paying public pays too much for these radio systems, and whole police budgets in general and law abiding citizens should have the choice to monitor essential services if they choose too. I personally think that The City of London should have a bylaw's' in place that states that if a person or persons uses 'any' communications devices for the purposes of committing a crime that they should have a fine of no less than $100,000.00 (ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS) and time in prison. I think that if there was a massive advertising campaign so that Londoners are made aware of this law you would see a big drop in crime in this city.

Sheldon.
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Old 12-07-2012, 8:03 PM
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ITT:

http://i.imgur.com/owuaB.jpg
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Old 12-07-2012, 9:00 PM
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Ottawa is encrypted? That must be new. VERY new.
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Old 12-07-2012, 9:10 PM
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the sign of the times post 9/11...

Toronto is heading that way..
here in Quebec... Montreal just purchased a new communication system with encryption slated to be up & running by 2015..

S.Q. (Quebec Provincial Police) are slowly migrating to the NEW RENIR system also encrypted..
Transport Quebec is already using it.

Laval Police & Fire are encryted..

Longueuil Police is encrypted..Fire is still in the clear..

all major cities in Canada (and alot of the U.S.) are headed the same way...
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Old 12-07-2012, 9:28 PM
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dont forget Durham,York,and Toronto in 2014 as well.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcam406 View Post
dont forget Durham,York,and Toronto in 2014 as well.
is that confirmed or is just a rumor because i have not heard anything about toronto.
sarnia is enc 99.9 percent
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exkalibur View Post
Ottawa is encrypted? That must be new. VERY new.
The database is saying it is ProVoice not really encrypted but no scanner can pick it up ProVoice .


Quote:
This system consists of two networked sub-systems. Police and Airport Security are
digital (Provoice), most others analog. EMS talkgroups are seldom used after EMS
transition to Fleetnet.


http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?ctid=4311
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animaljr43 View Post
is that confirmed or is just a rumor because i have not heard anything about toronto.
sarnia is enc 99.9 percent
I don't think Toronto police will be getting new radios any time soon that alone encrypted talkgroups with all the cut backs and money problem.

If I remember some old threads the big police forces that take on large cities population 1,000,000 and up become very costly .But it seems most of the small cities and smaller police forces are going that way.


For Quebec the government spends a lot of money and run a high debt so I'm not surprised.

Some of these bigger police forces are having hard time to come up with money to get more cops on the street so it comes down to get more cops on the street or have encrypted talkgroups .It not uncommon for Toronto police to voice out 10 or 15 calls in a division on hold with only one or no unit to go on any of calls.I think most be be looking at options of getting more cops on the street than getting new radios.

Last edited by car55; 12-07-2012 at 11:50 PM..
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Old 12-08-2012, 7:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animaljr43 View Post
is that confirmed or is just a rumor because i have not heard anything about toronto.
sarnia is enc 99.9 percent
its confirmed.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:05 AM
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Ah boy. Here we go again....
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:16 AM
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Diddn't Mr. Scott once say, "The more they overtick the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain". ?

I think that this adverserial relationship between public saftey radio and the scanning comunity is getting rediculus. It costs law enforcement billions of unnessicary dollars to maintain and develop new ways to encrypt, and some geek with nothing but time on his or her hands usually winds up cracking it.

Yes, some traffic does need to be encrypted. No doubt. But this should be the exception, not the rule.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:16 AM
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lol,yup
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:25 AM
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Nobody is interested in transparency anymore, they just all like the fact that nobody can hear them any more (good guys or bad). London Police have been trying to defend their ever increasing budget demands by telling the media how busy they are, etc etc, Prove it. Drop the encryption on the Core and Fringe talkgroups and let the people that pay the bills hear firsthand just how busy you are. Keep everything else encrypted if you want, but open up the everyday operational comms.
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forts View Post
Ah boy. Here we go again....
lol my thoughts exactly forts
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Old 12-08-2012, 1:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by car55 View Post
I don't think Toronto police will be getting new radios any time soon that alone encrypted talkgroups with all the cut backs and money problem.

If I remember some old threads the big police forces that take on large cities population 1,000,000 and up become very costly .But it seems most of the small cities and smaller police forces are going that way.


For Quebec the government spends a lot of money and run a high debt so I'm not surprised.

Some of these bigger police forces are having hard time to come up with money to get more cops on the street so it comes down to get more cops on the street or have encrypted talkgroups .It not uncommon for Toronto police to voice out 10 or 15 calls in a division on hold with only one or no unit to go on any of calls.I think most be be looking at options of getting more cops on the street than getting new radios.
Toronto is a done deal but that money was approved four years ago and all Toronto police, fire, ems have the new radios already but they are just operating in analog mode until the P25 is finished. One thing to remember is there is no money for operational/employees but always money for capital budget, two very different things.

The only question with Toronto is if all services will be ENC or just the police, Hamilton went ENC for everything from police, fire, works, animal control, others just ENC the police.
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Old 12-08-2012, 1:50 PM
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They don't all have new radios yet.

Toronto Fire needs to replace their portables and mobiles. Toronto EMS needs to replace their portables.

That's still a lot of radios that need to be moved over.
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Old 12-08-2012, 2:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exkalibur View Post
They don't all have new radios yet.

Toronto Fire needs to replace their portables and mobiles. Toronto EMS needs to replace their portables.

That's still a lot of radios that need to be moved over.
its in motion as we speak.
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Old 12-08-2012, 6:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by se View Post
. I personally think that The City of London should have a bylaw's' in place that states that if a person or persons uses 'any' communications devices for the purposes of committing a crime that they should have a fine of no less than $100,000.00 (ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS) and time in prison. I think ..... you would see a big drop in crime in this city.

Sheldon.
Okay, that would not bring crime down. If you look at the raw stats over the years in canada and US. for instance look to the southern states where the death penalty is in place, you still have major spikes in homicide!.

Also, it wouldn't be a bylaw, it would be enacted in the Criminal Code of Canada to prescribe such a punishment.


As for encryption, it is just like back in the mid 90's when people couldn't listen in to the agencies that went to trunking or digital for that matter. Then it was only a matter of time before the scanner companies develpoed trunking and digital scanners. soo, it is a matter of time before people ***** and complain that they cannot listen to their police service, etc. and there will be either changes to the CC so persons can decrypt certain encrypted communication. OR the scanner companies will find loopholes to circumvent the encryption. Yes yes, 128- 256 bit encryption "impossible" to crack, no not really. Especially in 10 years from now with the speed and efficiency of technology. And even when we are able to listen to encrypted coms there will be some other technology in 20 years that will all be *****ing about that impedes monitoring of coms.

So, quit *****ing, encryption is happening. listen while you can and take up an other hobby.

Last edited by unusualtech; 12-08-2012 at 6:10 PM..
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Old 12-08-2012, 7:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcam406 View Post
its in motion as we speak.
It's been in motion for years, nobody is disputing that. My point is that they can't just make the switch tomorrow.
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