Continuing from the Dorner thread.....

[Jay911]

Originally Posted by exkalibur

The second you do anything to harm a Police Officer - be it assault, injure, kill whatever - your right to personal security, freedom and (depending) life has been revoked. I don't necessarily agree with the way it was done, but I don't see anything wrong with them making sure this guy didn't see the light of day ever again.

I got the impression from what I read of his "manifesto" that he knew exactly what he was getting into, and had no issues with paying the price. I agree with the first part of your post as well, but as I said previously, while I can't condone his actions, I'm of the opinion he had a legitimate beef with the LAPD.

[com501]

Every time I or anyone on my team had fired tear gas into a building we called the fire department. Most of the time, we set something on fire.

If the bad guy is shooting back, we weren't putting out the fire, period. Until the scene is safe, I don't expect ANY fireman to risk his life to put out a fire where an active shooter is shooting at dozens of heavily armed police officers.

That being said, LAPD is not known for being one of the most reputable agencies in California. They just aren't. Sloppy investigations, excessive force, bad IA, all kinds of things, but there are many departments with less than exemplary records. Dorner was a nutbag, with clear intentions, proven motive and actions and was NOT going to be taken alive. He had ample opportunity during the final standoff to surrender, all he had to do was stop shooting and start throwing weapons out the windows, he might have survived.

Hell, he could have walked out of the house he was hiding in, days earlier, ACROSS THE STREET from the command post at Big Bear, where he was watching the teams searching for him, too.

I have no sympathy for him, only for any family he may have left, and any lives he has ruined, or collateral damage he has caused. Look at the life of the old lady who's house was destroyed by his actions? What about HER?

[Jimru]

Btw, guys; if tear gas canisters routinely cause fires, why are they manufactured in such a way?

[com501]

Well.....

They need to be HOT, so you can't pick them up.
They need to be FIRED from a launcher (it's an explosive charge)
They need to EXPLODE to ignite the gas.
They need to BURN to expand and spread the gas.

Pretty much means FIRE to me....

Why do tracer rounds cause fires if their only job is to point the way?

These are dangerous weapons, not bean bags. Even bean bags can be lethal. You do bad things, expect bad results. None of this is OSHA approved.

If it were up to me, and there was no other buildings around, I would have continued to fire rounds into that building until the structure collapsed. But that's just me.

[pepsima1]

Originally Posted by com501

Every time I or anyone on my team had fired tear gas into a building we called the fire department. Most of the time, we set something on fire.

If the bad guy is shooting back, we weren't putting out the fire, period. Until the scene is safe, I don't expect ANY fireman to risk his life to put out a fire where an active shooter is shooting at dozens of heavily armed police officers.

That being said, LAPD is not known for being one of the most reputable agencies in California. They just aren't. Sloppy investigations, excessive force, bad IA, all kinds of things, but there are many departments with less than exemplary records. Dorner was a nutbag, with clear intentions, proven motive and actions and was NOT going to be taken alive. He had ample opportunity during the final standoff to surrender, all he had to do was stop shooting and start throwing weapons out the windows, he might have survived.

Hell, he could have walked out of the house he was hiding in, days earlier, ACROSS THE STREET from the command post at Big Bear, where he was watching the teams searching for him, too.

I have no sympathy for him, only for any family he may have left, and any lives he has ruined, or collateral damage he has caused. Look at the life of the old lady who's house was destroyed by his actions? What about HER?

Well this lady that ownes that house should be happy that her run downed old cabin in Big Bear was burned to the the ground. All of those cabins are probably 60 years old and beat up. The good news is our tax dollars is going to build her a very nice luxury mansion up on that 4 acre property because THE LAPD and San Bernardino Sheriffs owe that to her for building a bomb fire and barbecuing some dirty meat that needed to be cooked well done.

[Jimru]

Originally Posted by com501

Well.....

They need to be HOT, so you can't pick them up.
They need to be FIRED from a launcher (it's an explosive charge)
They need to EXPLODE to ignite the gas.
They need to BURN to expand and spread the gas.

Pretty much means FIRE to me....

Why do tracer rounds cause fires if their only job is to point the way?

These are dangerous weapons, not bean bags. Even bean bags can be lethal. You do bad things, expect bad results. None of this is OSHA approved.

If it were up to me, and there was no other buildings around, I would have continued to fire rounds into that building until the structure collapsed. But that's just me.

Yeah, I reckon you are correct....

I have no problem with the way things turned out, none at all.

[Confuzzled]

Originally Posted by com501

If it were up to me, and there was no other buildings around, I would have continued to fire rounds into that building until the structure collapsed. But that's just me.

You must have liked that scene in "The Gauntlet".

[Jimru]

...and the end of "Bonnie and Clyde"!!

[com501]

Originally Posted by pepsima1

Well this lady that ownes that house should be happy that her run downed old cabin in Big Bear was burned to the the ground. All of those cabins are probably 60 years old and beat up. The good news is our tax dollars is going to build her a very nice luxury mansion up on that 4 acre property because THE LAPD and San Bernardino Sheriffs owe that to her for building a bomb fire and barbecuing some dirty meat that needed to be cooked well done.

The cabin had just been extensively remodeled and upgraded last summer.....

[marcotor]

Originally Posted by pepsima1

Well this lady that ownes that house should be happy that her run downed old cabin in Big Bear was burned to the the ground. All of those cabins are probably 60 years old and beat up. The good news is our tax dollars is going to build her a very nice luxury mansion up on that 4 acre property because THE LAPD and San Bernardino Sheriffs owe that to her for building a bomb fire and barbecuing some dirty meat that needed to be cooked well done.

Well, if you had actually thought to read about it (I know because I drive by there twice a week), those rustic cabins that were built by a WW1 Veteran in the early 1920's had been rehabbed in the last few years pretty extensively. Tile and other flooring, structural improvements, plumbing, HVAC, etc., etc...

But don't let facts get into the way of your opinion.

[Confuzzled]

Originally Posted by marcotor

I can say from first-hand experience during visits with friends who work for an Orange County costal LE agency, that the traffic on the OC system, especially the "task force" channels, is anything but constrained. Most are aware they cannot be monitored, so an inappropriate comment or profanity happens much more often than you would hear on "open" agencies.

SBSO traffic, and comments by LEO on scene - regardless of intent - are being used to incite and inflame the aftermath.

If a situation were to arise in the future, you can be sure tactical operations will be conducted on a channel not provisioned for "authorized news agency" radios.

Those are the very reasons the public and press should be demanding an end to closed systems. Transparency and accountability should not be allowed to thrown away by agencies who depend on public funds.

That type of elitist thinking is partially what set this whole event in motion.

[pepsima1]

I really think that streaming audio of different acencies needs to come to a stop. I think its a technology that has gone a little too far and has caused too many problems and has raised red flags.

Streaming audio to the world as to broadcasting RR audio feeds all over the news has gone way to far.

Just my two cents. RR owner or owners really need to talk a good look at what damaging effects its taking on the industry and our hobby.

Once RR was announced on live TV the whole site and feeds went down because of server hardware failure. RR did not go down. They got scared becasue of legal actions as well as they just pulled the plug on the site because things just got too way out of control.

[Code20Photog]

Originally Posted by pepsima1

I really think that streaming audio of different acencies needs to come to a stop. I think its a technology that has gone a little too far and has caused too many problems and has raised red flags.

Streaming audio to the world as to broadcasting RR audio feeds all over the news has gone way to far.

Just my two cents. RR owner or owners really need to talk a good look at what damaging effects its taking on the industry and our hobby.

Once RR was announced on live TV the whole site and feeds went down because of server hardware failure. RR did not go down. They got scared becasue of legal actions as well as they just pulled the plug on the site because things just got too way out of control.

My two cents. Scanners are legal. Many are actually cheaper than a full-feature smart phone. Live streaming is simply a different form of scanning.

I don't listen to on-line feeds all that often, but when I do, it's usually something really far away that I can't hear with my scanner or something like FDNY just for fun.

I was in Big Bear covering the Dorner manhunt, and we were listening to our two scanners the whole time. What's the difference between that, and listening to it on my smartphone? When the shootout happened, I was at LAPD headquarters 90 miles away, and we were listening to system 8 on my cell phone. We had a group of about 50 people gathered around my live van listening, many of them LAPD officers. I couldn't get on RR, it showed *33,000* people listening. I was able to listen to my scanner app, that only had 17,000 people listening. I would honestly think that of those 50,000 people, *FIFTY THOUSAND*, very few if any of them were anywhere near that cabin.

[pepsima1]

Originally Posted by Code20Photog

My two cents. Scanners are legal. Many are actually cheaper than a full-feature smart phone. Live streaming is simply a different form of scanning.

I don't listen to on-line feeds all that often, but when I do, it's usually something really far away that I can't hear with my scanner or something like FDNY just for fun.

I was in Big Bear covering the Dorner manhunt, and we were listening to our two scanners the whole time. What's the difference between that, and listening to it on my smartphone? When the shootout happened, I was at LAPD headquarters 90 miles away, and we were listening to system 8 on my cell phone. We had a group of about 50 people gathered around my live van listening, many of them LAPD officers. I couldn't get on RR, it showed *33,000* people listening. I was able to listen to my scanner app, that only had 17,000 people listening. I would honestly think that of those 50,000 people, *FIFTY THOUSAND*, very few if any of them were anywhere near that cabin.

Yes streaming is a simply different form of scanning which is ruined and put a bad taste in the minds of counties and city officals and police chiefs and LE agencies. Their way of fixing it for good is to ENCRYPT and that will be it. No need to fight with anybody on it. Look at it this way lets put a microphone in every bedroom in your house and lets stream it to the world. Tell me how you would stop that from happening?? Just pull the plug or ENCRYPT and that would be the permant fix...

I just wish it did not get to this point and everybody would come together and settle on some sort of agreement for protecting all departments as well as keeping some LE talkgroups open for people in their own communities and tone down all of these internet feeds or just end them to save the industry from further damage. Just something for people to think about

[Confuzzled]

Originally Posted by pepsima1

Look at it this way lets put a microphone in every bedroom in your house and lets stream it to the world.

Just something for people to think about

Most people in most bedrooms aren't being paid with tax dollars and using systems under Federal license.

But that isn't what this thread is about.

Who gets the million dollars?

Who pays for the lady's cabin?

How do LA residents fix the problems in LAPD so this kind of thing doesn't come up again?

How do the people nationwide fix their PDs to become more accountable to the taxpayers so this kind of problem doesn't happen elsewhere?

How do we stop PDs from killing those they don't want to testify?

Maybe people need to get their city councils or other local governments and/or the media involved in efforts to retake control of their PDs from the para-military elements.

[jrholm]

Originally Posted by Confuzzled

Most people in most bedrooms aren't being paid with tax dollars and using systems under Federal license.

But that isn't what this thread is about.

Who gets the million dollars?[b]Hopefully the last 3 involved (the couple who got tied up and the man who got carjacked will get a good cut[/b}

Who pays for the lady's cabin? Should be Dorner's estate if any, but since there probably isn't sufficient funds San Bernardino County will probably end up paying

How do LA residents fix the problems in LAPD so this kind of thing doesn't come up again? I would hope they recheck his background investigation to see if they missed anything and learn from their mistakes. It's apparent Dorner had long seated problems that they psych exam should have exposed

How do the people nationwide fix their PDs to become more accountable to the taxpayers so this kind of problem doesn't happen elsewhere?

How do we stop PDs from killing those they don't want to testify? I seriously hope you don't think this is a true problem

Maybe people need to get their city councils or other local governments and/or the media involved in efforts to retake control of their PDs from the para-military elements.

Law enforcement is an ugly business dealing quite frequently with an ugly side of society. Maybe you should be glad there are people who are willing to wade into those problems on society's behalf and understand that the vast majority of law enforcement across this country do so in an honorable manner.

[Confuzzled]

I seriously hope you don't think this is a true problem

It's definitely a problem, and not only in LA.

[feets]

Originally Posted by jrholm

Law enforcement is an ugly business dealing quite frequently with an ugly side of society. Maybe you should be glad there are people who are willing to wade into those problems on society's behalf and understand that the vast majority of law enforcement across this country do so in an honorable manner.

Before a problem can be fixed, first it must be recognized that a problem exists.

PoliceMisconduct.net | The Cato Institute's National Police Misconduct Reporting Project

Ignore the problem all you like and keep wondering why Dorner had such a large fan base.

The vast majority of LE are not honorable. The statistics speak for themselves. Members of LE commit many crimes at greater per capita rates than the general public, including homicide.

Your belief in LE as inherently good simply because they are LE is as foolish as believing that everyone that professes a belief in God is good. The shock people feel when they find their trusted priest has been diddling their young son is the same shock when they find the trusted cop has beat their son for no apparent reason. It always hurts more when it's someone you trusted that betrays you. As the betrayal by LE continues to grow, so will the hatred to them.

So be it.

[com501]

"The vast majority of LE are not honorable. The statistics speak for themselves."

Quote this statistic please. Any statistic that shows this. Even from a questionable source. Any statistic that supports your argument. I will agree before you even start that there is probably a bad element in some departments but not many, certainly not most, and quite certainly not a vast majority as you state. Please prove me wrong.

I'm not even going to begin to argue your other two radical suppositions, as they are also quite loosely anchored in any form of verifiable facts.

[RadioDaze]

Originally Posted by feets

The vast majority of LE are not honorable.

What is your definition of "vast majority"?