Continuing from the Dorner thread.....

[JoeyC]

'feets" hiding behind a new log-in created just for this thread. Wonder how long till RR admin take care of him for the greater good. I'd like to see some stats too besides what resides at that anti-cop site you've posted.

[feets]

Originally Posted by com501

Quote this statistic please. Any statistic that shows this. Even from a questionable source. Any statistic that supports your argument. I will agree before you even start that there is probably a bad element in some departments but not many, certainly not most, and quite certainly not a vast majority as you state. Please prove me wrong.

Click on the link I provided in my prior post. Then click on the "STATISTICS" button. Then choose the 2010 report(The newest available).

Since I only used homicide as an example, I'll only quote the murder portion. Feel free to read the whole thing at your leisure.

From the report;

"While the rate of police officers officially charged with murder is only 1.06% higher than the current general population murder rate, if excessive force complaints involving fatalities were prosecuted as murder the murder rate for law enforcement officers would exceed the general population murder rate by 472%."

Now that I have provided what you've asked, feel free to dispute the numbers or source. It should be an interesting debate.

[feets]

Originally Posted by RadioDaze

What is your definition of "vast majority"?

I'll go with 90%.

While 90% are not bad, as in not committing violations or lying ect, less than ten percent are honorable. By honorable, I mean they have the moral fortitude to speak up against what they see other officers doing.

Does that help?

[feets]

Originally Posted by JoeyC

'feets" hiding behind a new log-in created just for this thread. Wonder how long till RR admin take care of him for the greater good. I'd like to see some stats too besides what resides at that anti-cop site you've posted.

Don't like the message, ask the admin to do away with the messenger.

I am an amateur radio operator. Call is kg7are. I would like to post in that section of the forum more often, but the forum is slow. You can find my name and address using my call if you feel I am "hiding".

You may want to look up the Cato Institute. It's hardly just an "anti-cop site".

Feel free to join me in conversation rather than hope I go away. I've done nothing to you,,,,,,,,unless my opinion stings?

[Confuzzled]

I wouldn't necessarily say the 'vast majority', but a significant number definitely get arrested, disciplined, fired, sued, etc. That number is easily in the thousands each year, and that's only the ones that get caught. Too many Rambos wearing badges these days. Not enough Andy Taylors.

I'd like to see some stats too besides what resides at that anti-cop site you've posted.

Why would a site that posts the truth be a bad thing? That's only one of many sites designed to open the eyes of the public, some of which are run by police or former police. Just a short sampling:

Home
The Police Abuse Crisis
Police Brutality
The Tarnished Badge | Exposing the dark side of Law Enforcement.
Welcome to NPAP | National Police Accountability Project
Cop Block | Reporting Police Abuse, Brutality, and Corruption
Diane Wetendorf: advocate, author, feminist | Abuse of power | Officer involved domestic violence | Breaking our isolation. Confronting the system. Educating our community.

Truth doesn't have to be anti-anything other than anti-ignorance.

Transparency and accountability are more important than blind trust of anybody wearing a badge.

Remember that the incident that prompted recent events was a perceived injustice within LAPD. The public will never know for sure if he was unjustly fired or not. All anyone will ever know is what LAPD wants to publish.

Denver is in the news right now over a policy change in the discipline review process for public safety personnel that the unions are fighting.

[com501]

OMG!!

From that website: Last year reported: 2010. Highest rate of officer abuse in the country: Cook County, Illinois, Chicago. 13,000+ officers. 99 reports for the entire year. OMG!! A hotbed of corruption and abuse! It MUST be a conspiracy to hide the facts.

But wait - Isn't the footsore's own reference site???



Hmmm......


Hardly a 'vast majority' old chap, unless that 'vast majority' is beating upon you at the time.

[feets]

Originally Posted by com501

OMG!!

From that website: Last year reported: 2010. Highest rate of officer abuse in the country: Cook County, Illinois, Chicago. 13,000+ officers. 99 reports for the entire year. OMG!! A hotbed of corruption and abuse! It MUST be a conspiracy to hide the facts.

But wait - Isn't the footsore's own reference site???



Hmmm......


Hardly a 'vast majority' old chap, unless that 'vast majority' is beating upon you at the time.

Seems we have a miscommunication going. I never said the vast majority were abusive or law breaking.

I did reply to jrholm who wrote; " Maybe you should be glad there are people who are willing to wade into those problems on society's behalf and understand that the vast majority of law enforcement across this country do so in an honorable manner".

I replied that the vast majority of LE are not honorable.

It may help you to understand my comment when you know the definition of honorable;

hon·or·a·ble (nr--bl)
adj.
1. Deserving or winning honor and respect: led an honorable life.
2. Bringing distinction or recognition: honorable service to one's nation.
3. Possessing and characterized by honor: an honorable person.
4. Consistent with honor or good name: followed the only honorable course of action.
5. Distinguished; illustrious: this honorable gathering of scholars.
6. Attended by marks of recognition and honor: received an honorable burial.
7. Honorable Abbr. Hon.
a. Used as a title of respect for certain high government officials: The Honorable Jane Doe, Associate Justice of the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts.
b. Used as a courtesy title for the children of barons and viscounts and the younger sons of earls.
c. Used in the House of Commons as a title of respect when speaking of another member.

honorable - definition of honorable by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

You see, nothing in there about cop abuse. Of course, such actions would prevent one from being considered honorable. So would looking the other way or covering for an abusive LEO, hence the vast majority of LEO's being dishonorable. If the vast majority of LEO were honorable as jrholm claimed, there would be hardly any bad(abusive) cops. Those honorable cops would report them and get rid of them.

Have a nice day.

[Confuzzled]

What's interesting is that it isn't just street level officers. In the past few weeks there have been a number of articles about Chiefs and other command level members being arrested, fired or forced to retire/resign. There's one high ranking officer in Kentucky facing a murder charge.

Because most departments keep their files 'closed' the public at large doesn't really know how many officers have been disciplined for non-criminal policy violations.

[com501]

For the same very good reason you don't hear about private companies disciplining their employees. HR decisions NOT charged in criminal court are privileged, and if a department or anyone else, like your employer made them public, you could as an employee sue their *** off.

[feets]

Originally Posted by com501

For the same very good reason you don't hear about private companies disciplining their employees. HR decisions NOT charged in criminal court are privileged, and if a department or anyone else, like your employer made them public, you could as an employee sue their *** off.

Ah. There is the rub. The statistics I cited are only the publically known numbers. The true numbers are not known. They are secret. So, it is a very safe assumption that though the violations by LE, the publically known being statistically higher than the general population, would be much much higher if we knew the true number.

Convenient.

[jrholm]

Originally Posted by Confuzzled

.

Remember that the incident that prompted recent events was a perceived injustice within LAPD. The public will never know for sure if he was unjustly fired or not. All anyone will ever know is what LAPD wants to publish.

.

Yes he was justly fired. In fact you can find out the truth since he appealed his firing all the way to the California Supreme Court. His termination was upheld by the courts at every hearing. Make a request for the transcripts from the courts. In addition there are numerous entities out there that would love to find a case like his that was valid to trounce and embarass the LAPD, but none of them would take his case. Why do you think that is? Because he didn't have a leg to stand on!

Be careful seeking validation in your beliefs from people of the same belief. The websites you ppoint to are themselves one sided and are pushing their agenda. Seek independent confirmation.

[zerg901]

The big question seems to be - who polices the police? who fires the firemen?

Federal court in Boston recently ruled that BPD cannot arrest people who videotape the police. The judges basically said it is the responsibility of the public to police the police.

The public hires the politicians who hire the Chiefs who hire the troops. Seems to me that the discipline should come from the Chiefs first, the politicians second, and the public third. Or not. In general.

[pepsima1]

Nobody fires the fireman because they are the good people. The cops are the bad people. So I would say have the fireman spark a big fire and throw all of the dirty cops in the burner too and roast them with Dorner.

[ff-medic]

Originally Posted by exkalibur

The second you do anything to harm a Police Officer - be it assault, injure, kill whatever - your right to personal security, freedom and (depending) life has been revoked. I don't necessarily agree with the way it was done, but I don't see anything wrong with them making sure this guy didn't see the light of day ever again.

There is plenty of people incarcerated, and have been incarcerated whom were innocent. There has been people executed,and people whom were on death row....whom were innocent.

A person is innocent of the crimes against them, till they are proven guilty in a court of law. The accused have the right to have their rights protected, the right to legal counsel, and the right to a fair trial.

I have been in Public Safety for quite some time. I have heard and read court cases. A person is innocent, till they are proven guilty in a court of law. I did a college research paper some time back. It shocked me at the people whom were sent to incarceration, or put on death row - AND WERE innocent.

Innocent because - Evidence or testimony was fabricated. Witnesses were untruthful. Planted evidence......and a host of other misdeeds by law, or legal professionals. Sickening that someone, or a group of people would want to incarcerate an innocent person. To essentially take ones life from them, destroying their family and social life, their home life and their work life. To install great psychological and probably physological harm. Why would someone ...Knowingly, want to do that. I never could. Send an innocent person to prision. Innocent. Speaking of character on the opposing force?

Hypothetical court argument = Legal, Civil, and quite possibly workplace rights...and a host of other criteria comes into play. Getting a legal professional to back you, listen to you, and support your case... while believing in you, is what is difficult. Especially those court appointed lawyers, I so frequently read about in papers and magazines. They are working on the courts dime......and from what I have read, they are not as strategic and with as much integrity as if they were making "The big bucks". I never did understand legal specialitys ( corporate - labor - medical - environmental - international..ect ). A lawyer is a lawyer as I see it.

Get the facts, and go from there. Lady justice is blind remember. And the accused is innocent till proven guilty.


FF-Medic !!!!

[ff-medic]

Originally Posted by pepsima1

Nobody fires the fireman because they are the good people. The cops are the bad people. So I would say have the fireman spark a big fire and throw all of the dirty cops in the burner too and roast them with Dorner.

Not speaking of this particular event/situation. People do odd things. People see, hear or are exposed to something and they have chemical changes inside their body.

Seeing a bad event, having a difficult family life, witnessing a terrible social event, being exposed to waht I define as psychological trauma, makes even the best person "loose it".

Something "triggered" Dorner to do what he did. What was the "trigger". Does what trigger him make him innocent...even though what he did could be defined as horrible by some people? Did he mix a prescription med(s) with an over the counter med(s) unknowingly, and had a chemical reaction in his brain..causing him to "Flip"?

Instead of criticizing ones needs to ask - "What made a fine officer do this?"

What makes a priest ( who has admitted to the crime ) molest children? ( thats a good question ) Is the molestation physical, psychologial, physicologial, or some other problem within the body? I am sure there is medical experts out there that could speculate professionally as to why?

Any person with one class of psychology, and maybe sociology could tell you that.

Being shallow or narrow minded does not get the questions answered. Being shallow or narrow minded
is what makes some people racist, sexist, anti-sematic, and a host of other problems that plague our society.

The very person you hate, oppress, are prejudiced of, jealous of, or constantly bash down or criticize...may very well be the person in the future whom helps you in some great way, or saves your life.

I had a partner in EMS one time. I asked the question, not directly at her, at the snack machine why one has to have a college degree to become a Paramedic ( they started requiring college english - anatomy and physology - math..ect after my graduating medic class ). She said that " It makes you a more rounded person". I never though of that till she said it.

Well, college does make you a well rounded person...If you learned anything. Well, yes having the same thing ( A&P..ect ) twice is ok I guess, and I still think that it was due to the colleges getting money. Why do the same thing twice. I did OK, I graduated the Paramedic course with a 3.5 GPA, and I believe when i got out of the course, I was one heck of a Paramedic....If I say so myself. I was aggressive, and I was always wanting to learn. Point being........I devoloped medical problems ( I wont elaborate on, not terrible or embarrasing problems , but medical problems ) going through a year of what I describe as h@ll.

Class room, work full time, clinicals in three different hospitals ( ER and Floor ), and ambualance ride alongs. Then came the National Registry Testing, which by far is not easy. I devoloped medical problems. So I can see where a Police Officer of any agency could devolop medical problems, chemical changes inside the body due to external events and stressors, and changes inside the body.

Remember - Innocent till proven guilty, and Lady Justice is blind.

FF-Medic !!!

[ff-medic]

Originally Posted by feets

the "STATISTICS" "While the rate of police officers officially charged with murder is only 1.06% higher than the current general population murder rate, if excessive force complaints involving fatalities were prosecuted as murder the murder rate for law enforcement officers would exceed the general population murder rate by 472%."

Now that I have provided what you've asked, feel free to dispute the numbers or source. It should be an interesting debate.

Another cop bashing thread.

FF- Medic !!!

[Ray_Air]

Originally Posted by md_p97

Personally, I'm OK with the burn. He shot innocent people not connected to what happen to him, ambushed a bunch of cops, tried to kill a few more and made it perfectly clear he had no intention of being taken alive.

At any time, he could have stopped the madness, contacted an attorney and turn himself in to federal authorities. That's not the way he wanted to go...it was HIS decision to go out in a blaze of glory (pun intended).

Yep...I'm okay with the cabin being torched.

Today they burned Dorner. Tomorrow they burn you or someone you care about.