Continuing from the Dorner thread.....

Confuzzled · #1 (**permalink**) 02-13-2013, 10:01 AM

We all know this guy went about it wrong, just about as wrong as he could have. But many of us with open eyes also know he may have had a valid complaint. Lots of news items reporting him to be difficult and a complainer. Many even reporting he had a violent past. But was he railroaded? Was the case against him 'just' or was it an excuse to get rid of somebody that slipped through the cracks? If he had a bad past, how did he get in to begin with?

There are also those who refuse to subscribe to the notion that you respect the badge no matter who's wearing it. Thousands of officers are disciplined in one way or another every year. How many more go undiscovered? How many are discovered behaving badly but are not dealt with? What percentage of cops go bad? What's the ratio of good cops vs. bad cops?

I've known and worked with plenty of both. Some goods ones who got drummed out for the wrong reasons. Some who never should have been hired. Some who started out good, but let it go to their heads.

Somebody on the Dorner thread mentioned a site named 'Copblock' which is only one of many such sites that chronicle problems in law enforcement. I don't know of any of them that wouldn't like to run out of material because law enforcement has been turned around and cops no longer break the laws they're hired to enforce.

brandon · #2 (**permalink**) 02-13-2013, 11:52 AM

RPD using Ch5 453.750 for the funeral today.

Confuzzled · #3 (**permalink**) 02-13-2013, 6:11 PM

Major media in the US and overseas has picked up on the YouTube link and other sources regarding a possible intentional burn.

They're also raising questions about the attempts to silence the media.

I saw references to a 'small scale Waco' on a couple of boards which I discounted at the time since the circumstances were so different. Now I'm wondering if this won't mushroom into a similar media story over time.

There have been many, many fires started by tear gas canisters, so that's a distinct possibility. But will we ever know? Or will we be able to trust any reports or conclusions?

Will we ever find out who was recorded on the YT video and what their real intentions were?

RainbowSix · #4 (**permalink**) 02-13-2013, 7:31 PM

While watching Anderson Cooper 360 on CNN this evening "Wednesday", there was audio clips from this traumatic event. Watch carefully and you will see that they state the audio source is from "Radio Reference".

Obviously, the feed was shut down at a certain point. I think RR was also shut down temporarily too.

My thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of the ones lost during this tragic event.

md_p97 · #5 (**permalink**) 02-13-2013, 7:32 PM

Personally, I'm OK with the burn. He shot innocent people not connected to what happen to him, ambushed a bunch of cops, tried to kill a few more and made it perfectly clear he had no intention of being taken alive.

At any time, he could have stopped the madness, contacted an attorney and turn himself in to federal authorities. That's not the way he wanted to go...it was HIS decision to go out in a blaze of glory (pun intended).

Yep...I'm okay with the cabin being torched.

rooivalk · #6 (**permalink**) 02-13-2013, 9:19 PM

"Burn" is slang for the use of M79 launched the gas canisters in the SWAT/Tac Community.

As for the "Valid" complaint: He was a problematic Officer since his Academy time. He appealed his termination through the court system, and lost at every hearing. His termination was reviewed at numerous levels in the courts, and he was NEVER successful. How much more proof does anyone need that he falsified a complaint against his Training Officer? He was looking for an excuse, as he was already receiving poor performance evaluations and was probably going to be terminated due to performance. All the documents relating to his LAPD past are available online, from the initial arrest report that started this mess up to the last court ruling. But, even that, will not satisfy the tin-hat wearing anti-police types who'll laud this animal as a hero.

karldotcom · #7 (**permalink**) 02-13-2013, 10:15 PM

.......................

Jay911 · #8 (**permalink**) 02-13-2013, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rooivalk

How much more proof does anyone need that he falsified a complaint against his Training Officer?

In my opinion, there's reasonable doubt that he "falsified a complaint against his Training Officer". That, and the ensuing railroading out of the police department, in no way justifies murder, but it does give a glimpse into why someone might be compelled to go to such lengths.

After the L.A. riots in 1992, the following book came out. I've lost my print copy, but the Kindle edition tells the story just the same.

L.A. Secret Police, Inside the LAPD Elite Spy Division: Ivan G. Goldman, Mike Rothmiller: Amazon.com: Kindle Store

I am about as far from the "tin-hat wearing anti-police type" as you can get, and I can plainly see there's plenty of rotten material in the Los Angeles Police Department.

feets · #9 (**permalink**) 02-14-2013, 1:23 AM

I would have burned the place if I was police. It's not the burning that I take issue with. It's the lying.

The two videos out in public are undisputable. The media video speaks for itself. The video with the feed is accurate, I was listening live.

The plan from the beginning was to burn him out.

Why lie about it? They claim they did not intentionally burn him out. Why lie? They had a choice, continue to risk officers or burn the place. They chose to burn. The decision would have help up in court, IMO. Why lie? Because it's what they do. It's what they know.

The whole thing has come full circle. LAPD's lie to protect a training officer starts a killing spree that ends with a lie.

When it comes to police misconduct, if there is no video or audio, there is no misconduct. They live the lie.

Confuzzled · #10 (**permalink**) 02-14-2013, 9:24 AM

Jay, it's not just LA. Every big department has the same problems. Baltimore, Chicago, Miami, New York, Seattle, Detroit and Oakland (just to name a few) have all been (or are currently) under Federal investigation or oversight. Chicago was just found 'guilty' in Federal court of fostering a 'code of silence' and will be paying out millions of dollars in settlements.

I've heard of similar cases in Toronto and even the RCMP is in the news in recent days. And then there's the mess at Scotland Yard.

Quote:

They had a choice, continue to risk officers or burn the place.

But why the rush? I've seen barricade situations last for days. They could have pulled back to a safe distance while maintaining a perimeter and waited him out. They knew the cabin was empty with no supplies and communications utilities. Bring in a Federal negotiator and try to work out a surrender.

feets · #11 (**permalink**) 02-14-2013, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confuzzled

But why the rush? I've seen barricade situations last for days. They could have pulled back to a safe distance while maintaining a perimeter and waited him out. They knew the cabin was empty with no supplies and communications utilities. Bring in a Federal negotiator and try to work out a surrender.

Good question. I don't have a good answer, but I can give the best one available.

Most long term standoff situations have hostages or other family members involved. Waco kids and Ruby Ridge kids. LE usually makes an attempt to get those folks out. If they fail to do so, they go in anyway.

I really can't think of a case of a single barricaded suspect situation that lasted for very long.

Yes, they had opportunity to secure the cabin and starve him out with minimized risk. Your guess is as good as mine why this does not happen. I can give you some insight into the mind of LEO though. Read the comments in the below link. Try to register with the site(PoliceOne) and you will be informed that the LE department you claim to work for will be called and it will be verified you are LEO. So, these are the comments of LEO's.

Audio: Police yell 'burn it down' raiding Dorner's hideaway

The only conclusion is that they did not wait him out because they wanted to kill him. They wanted to kill him just as much as he wanted to kill them.

Confuzzled · #12 (**permalink**) 02-14-2013, 4:43 PM

Quote:

Dorner manhunt: 'Hot gas' that burned cabin was last resort
Los Angeles Times - ‎1 hour ago‎

SWAT officers in the cabin standoff with murder suspect Christopher Dorner decided to use highly flammable "hot gas" canisters as a last resort after other efforts to persuade Dorner to surrender failed, according to law enforcement sources.

Last resort? After a couple of hours?

pepsima1 · #13 (**permalink**) 02-14-2013, 6:12 PM

his barbecued body has been identified. Just mop up the mess and move on. Just glad he did not give himself up and he went out with a bang. I didnt want to see his dumb *** all over the TV and draining tax payers dollars fighting the court system.

spectr17 · #14 (**permalink**) 02-15-2013, 6:19 AM

Pic of one of the AR-10s the wardens used in the Dorner shootout. Info on the warden's rifle at the link

http://www.pof-usa.com/assets/hans_120032-fg_v3.pdf

http://www.jesseshunting.com/images/...warden_700.jpg

pepsima1 · #15 (**permalink**) 02-15-2013, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confuzzled

Jay, it's not just LA. Every big department has the same problems. Baltimore, Chicago, Miami, New York, Seattle, Detroit and Oakland (just to name a few) have all been (or are currently) under Federal investigation or oversight. Chicago was just found 'guilty' in Federal court of fostering a 'code of silence' and will be paying out millions of dollars in settlements.

I've heard of similar cases in Toronto and even the RCMP is in the news in recent days. And then there's the mess at Scotland Yard.

But why the rush? I've seen barricade situations last for days. They could have pulled back to a safe distance while maintaining a perimeter and waited him out. They knew the cabin was empty with no supplies and communications utilities. Bring in a Federal negotiator and try to work out a surrender.

You dont negotiate with a COP killer. Darkness was coming real soon and once the sheriffs heard that another one of their own die because of this nut bag then it was time to bull doze the house and barbecue him. Plus now its over with and we just don't want to hear it all over the news and waste tax payer dollars on court fees and hear the drama for the next couple of years. He was not going quietly and he was not going to be taken into custody for sure. Once he final knew that there was no way out the gun went to his head and put a bullet right through his skull...... Plain and simple......

elk2370bruce · #16 (**permalink**) 02-15-2013, 11:46 AM

Good riddance to bad rubbish. No one likes a bad cop - even good cops. One well-placed round is a whole lot cheaper then a trial and imprisonment or even lethal injection. I hope that the wolves did not get sick at the BBQ. Archive this one as "Loser Gets What He Deserved".

Confuzzled · #17 (**permalink**) 02-15-2013, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepsima1

You dont negotiate with a COP killer.

Not when they have something to say you don't want heard.

It's pretty obvious that they wanted him silenced by any means necessary.

feets · #18 (**permalink**) 02-15-2013, 1:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elk2370bruce

Good riddance to bad rubbish. No one likes a bad cop - even good cops. One well-placed round is a whole lot cheaper then a trial and imprisonment or even lethal injection. I hope that the wolves did not get sick at the BBQ. Archive this one as "Loser Gets What He Deserved".

There is no such animal as a "good cop". If there were, there would be no bad cops.

Several bad cops received a well placed round in this case, no?

As you say, good riddance.

JoeyC · #19 (**permalink**) 02-15-2013, 3:18 PM

Only everyone already heard it.
Eliminating this lunatic by whatever means was the best/only solution. He made it clear there would be no negotiating and would kill repeatedly. You do not negotiate while actively being fired upon. Plus he had plenty of opportunity to give up and tell his story again. Glad we won't have to go through that nonsense again with this loser.

exkalibur · #20 (**permalink**) 02-15-2013, 8:30 PM

The second you do anything to harm a Police Officer - be it assault, injure, kill whatever - your right to personal security, freedom and (depending) life has been revoked. I don't necessarily agree with the way it was done, but I don't see anything wrong with them making sure this guy didn't see the light of day ever again.