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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2015, 11:00 PM
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Exclamation It’s starting. Radio Armageddon is at hand.

I have seen it coming for a long time, and it looks like the time may finally be arriving soon.

Tiger Teams and the FCC Enforcement Bureau | View from the Top

“Ron Smith (not verified) on Apr 15, 2015 The FCC began the climb downward when they removed the requirement for licensed technicians to work on radio communications equipment………..”

Field Office Phase Out? : CommLawBlog

“maynardogle - April 20, 2015 12:57 PM
……………….Even if 33 agent working out of 8 cities agents travel twice as much, (4 days per month), some cities are going to go years without an agent ever setting foot in them. Pirates will take root. Unlicensed part 90 will skyrocket because the odds of getting caught will be infintesimal. This is a step in the wrong direction.... “

It looks like the FCC is starting to show it’s hand.
The FCC’s actions are an indication on how it plans to deal with spectrum management in the long term future.

The FCC is making the first steps in walking away from HF/VHF/UHF spectrum enforcement.

It’s to the point that people in the industry are worried that there won’t even be enough enforcement to deal with the pirate radio broadcasters. They think there will be a perfect storm of illegal broadcasters that will be impossible to fight back. And that is people that will be broadcasting continuously, that want to be heard.

Think about the situation that will put the business band in. People that transmit intermittently and generally avoid trying to draw attention to themselves will be the lowest of the priorities on the FCC’s mind.

Combine that with the fact that there is currently tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, it not millions of frequency agile handheld AND High power MOBILE radios being sold all across the country, by an ever growing number of retailers, to people that don’t have the slightest intention of getting a license. All with the full blessing of the FCC

And when I mean frequency agile, I mean frequency agile. As in full front panel programmability of any frequency between 130 or so to 170 or so MHZ .That doesn’t even include the countless millions of GMRS bubble pack radios, and color dot business band radios that are being sold every year to people that don’t even know what the FCC is.

They talk about the perfect storm for AM and FM pirates, but the perfect storm for traditional part 90 is already in full force.

I truly think it’s official now. The FCC is throwing in the towel.

I will repeat what I stated several years ago on this forum.

They are apparently making the motions to abandon their traditional roll in managing traditional land mobile and two radio. Don’t look at what they are saying, look at their actions. Their actions betray their true long term intent.

They have set up the situation where they have moved most critical communications over to 700mhz + frequencies via modern digital transmission systems. People on here may gripe about how they can’t do that because of all the fire departments and other services that are still operating below 700mhz, but those people are in the minority, and they may be forced to shift to the newer systems to avoid unlicensed operators before it’s all said and done.

As far as I can tell since my last post, that the line of demarcation the Fcc has put in the stone is 700 mhz. All below that is going to the wolves. All above that is being carefully controlled.

If you look at the cheap radios that the FCC allowed to hit the market. All of the full programmable analog ones operate below 700mhz. There is not ONE that I have found that will transmit on frequencies above 700mhz. That fact still holds true. There is countless more models available than there was a couple years ago. But the 700Mhz bulkhead still stands. There is quad band radios, that will do 10m 6m 2m and 440, but there is still not one single 900mhz front panel programmable 50W, or even 5W frequency agile radio on the market. Wonder why?

Yet you want a 25 to 40mhz, or 40 to 60mhz, or 130 to 170mhz, or 200 to 240mhz, or 400 to 550mhz fully front panel programmable mobile radio with an output of 50W? No problem. 20 different stores have them in stock for a low low price of $130….. With free shipping. They will even give you quantity discounts if you buy by the pallet load. Want 100 radios? We will give you a 20 percent discount!


I am sorry here, but unless you are blind as a bat, the writing is clearly on the wall. Operations above 700 is now the critical management goal of the FCC. 2 way analog and digital communications below that bulkhead is going to be left to a natural state of self regulation.

Hams like me will gripe about the flood of bootleggers it will cause on the vhf ham frequencies, but I think the fallout is going to be far bigger than that by a long shot. This is going to end up turning the traditional two way radio industry on it’s head.

Also gives a possible explanation as to why automakers have stated they plan on phasing out AM/FM radios in cars. And the government has stated VHF AM ATC is going to be phased out.

Yes, I know there will be people that point to a single person getting finned some ungodly sum of money for doing something stupid, while cheering on the FCC for doing a good job.

Like this…

FRS GMRS Saber I conversion legality - Batboard
40k fine for putting a stock FRS radio on a 20 foot stick.

Yes, good work FCC. Thousands of frequency agile 50W radios flow onto the streets every week with your blessing, yet you done your job in style by cracking down on that person with the FRS radio….. On a stick…….. Yaaa…….good job…..(bangs head)

The absurdity of the situation is beyond definition.

As a fellow ham and licensed commercial radio operator, I feel everyone’s pain, but I won’t be deluded as to what is coming down the pike.

The only warning I can give the people here in radioland that will listen is, Buckle up, the ride is going to get bumpy.

Good day.
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Old 05-31-2015, 5:54 AM
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The FCC has been lost like the rest of our corporate government to the telecom mafia. The fact is the telecom mafia has planned this chaos long ago to use it as justification to get their grubby hands on the valuable chunks of VHF/UHF spectrum for white space broadband.

Since broadband is not really affected by narrowband carriers, their interference potential is minimal. In the meantime, allow the market to be flooded and tell the cops to go home. Those of us with vested interestes will just give up. After all, the goal of the telecom mafia is to make EVERYONE breathing a customer from age 8-80.

I've seen this coming since the massve SCAM PLAN that was known as 800MHz rebanding got pulled by Sprint-Nextel. What a great idea! Cause harmful interference to incumbent 800MHz public safety users which creates a "crisis" then have the "solution" on hand which just happens to net the offender the side effect of a contiguous block of golden 800MHz LMR spectrum. You see Sprint-Nextel wasted ZERO time shutting off iDEN and putting broadband EVDO/LTE in that space. Think that was accidental?

The FCC and it's corporate stooges made that debacle and expensive reality, much of it subsidized by taxpayers. Make no mistake, what we are seeing with the "free for all" of HF/VHF/UHF spectrum (including broadcast) is exactly what happens when a city or county sets forth a gentrification plan:

Make the area no longer viable by cutting services, police patrols, devalue the real estate, and those who you want out will just leave, then it is re-developed.

In our case there is one developer: the telecom mafia who's endless thirst for every MHz of usable spectrum is in their gun sights.
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Old 05-31-2015, 9:03 AM
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MTS You may be on the mark with the white space/cognitive radio theory. I have thought about it myself a couple years ago on the last thread I posted. They could allow all the narrowband users to run rouge over vhf that wanted to, and the Cognitive Radio system would just operate around them with no interference to the CR system, or the narrowband vhf operators.

And if all the primary big users go to CR (Military government, big business), then all that would be left on narrowband FM would be the small time companies, and individuals with point to point analog communications needs. That pool of people would be so small that the benefit of licensing them would be pointless. The FCC could just do away with the formality of licensing them, and let them do as they please on the vhf bands. The CR system will detect their presence and leave a quiet notch there for them to operate with no interference to the uncoordinated VHF users, and no interference to the digital CR system. The whole interaction would happen on demand. No oversight by a live person.


But my opinion it may also be just a result of the natural progression up the frequency dial that all services have made over the countless years. As they move up the bands, it leaves a vacuum behind them. You have natural propagation characteristics that keep the HF users in place. That has prevented HF from becoming a total vacuum. But VHF has no redeeming characteristics that will prevent the users from going up the band. And in actuality, the vhf antenna size requirements is an actual detriment to value of the band for modern communications technologies. That means VHF has the possibility of becoming a true radio wasteland. The fcc seeing that, is just setting up the situation to where they can walk away from the bandwidth and let the few remaining users become a self managing group within their allotted bandwidth like ham radio operators are.

Then again, it may be a combination of the two. The fcc seeing that vhf is going to be a radio wasteland, and knowing that silencing the installed base of vhf radio equipment is impossible, has decided on the white space/cognitive radio path as the only viable evolution path for the frequency bands.

It leaves traditional users to their own devices for the people that CAN NOT afford to go to newer systems, or just CAN NOT, or DO NOT want to use the newer systems for one reason or the other, and it allows newer technology to try and make use of the unused bandwidth. If the newer CR radio systems go bust (which is likely) then the older analog users will remain unaffected, and can continue to use the band unhindered. If the CR systems are a big hit, then dynamic dual use of the frequency range by two totally divergent radio systems will become the new NORM.

Either way, a stabile end result.
And both end results would mean that the FCC would have to exert zero effort on enforcement or licensing of those bands. That would leave them free to concentrate their resources on more valuable spectrum activities.
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Old 05-31-2015, 1:30 PM
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With the recent remarks by elected officials in this current administration (which is very cozy with the telecom mafia) making broadband "affordable and available" to every American, it is a no brainer= whitespace and CR are what WILL become of VHF. The trials on the Alaska coast were very successful at delivering broadband to rural areas on white space VHF TV channels.

88-108MHz would be another ideal piece to farm out. Once FM leaves the dashboard in favor of LTE, that industry will be crash and burn. They know it. No one listens to the radio outside of the car and or office. More and more at work listening is done over the Internet. The Internet gets deep inside buildings where not even powerful C0 FM sticks can.

I think you and I are both right. In the meantime, this means we will have to transition to narrowband digital systems such as DMR and NXDN with encryption and RAS just to keep the bootleg Chinese radios off our infrastructure. In some cases the "CB mentality" will play out with users running excessive power just to overcome the noise floor and co-channel interference.

Fun times ahead indeed.
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Old 06-01-2015, 7:09 AM
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The more I think about it though….. I think we may be pleased with the result in the end, when everything is said and done.
With every change there is detriments and benefits.

As I have mentioned before years ago, it opens up the very real possibility of a whole new paradigm of two way radio operation in the US. New things have a tendency to scare people that are use to the old way of doing things.

Look at what possibly would result.

You would have a ubiquitous supply of frequency agile 2 way radios available to anyone that wants them. If you wanted to talk to someone else. Pick a frequency and go. If you knew where another group was already operating, you just tune to that frequency and give them a call. A construction contractor (or anyone for that mater) could directly call A plumbing contractor on his dispatch frequency and ask them how long they think it will be until they get there, or to tell them to bring along some more pipe. There would be no previous agreements, or FCC allocations to make it possible.

The contractor may have his .575 frequency that he does his normal dispatch on, but also has his radios to set to scan .525 and tells other contractors that if they need to get a hold of his people in the field, to give them a call on the .525 frequency. It would open up a whole new realm of inter company communications.

If the company truly wanted to not be bugged by other companies on their frequency then they can go encrypted digital (as MTS stated).

But in general it would open up a whole new concept of inter company communications between employees of different companies in the field, and between those companies and the general public it’s self.

Then throw over top of that a net of Cognitive Radio. That net is filled by the government, emergency responders, and BIG business. Those people will be using SDR cognitive radios in the field. The CR system will allow them to directly interact with all the other CR system users, witch will bring about true direct interagency communications…. AND They will be able to see and monitor all the unlicensed radio activity in the field in real time. And it will allow them to make contact with those unlicensed private and small business operators in real time.

That is the thing with CR. It has to be aware of all existing radio traffic in it’s operating band, and the geographical location of those transmitters in it’s operating area. It has to have that situational awareness to avoid interfering with those operators, and provide a clear RF window (on demand) for those users to operate. That is a powerful situational awareness available to the operator of the system that can’t be overstated.

That situational awareness would give a whole new meaning to disaster communications.

If you don’t exactly understand the implications of that…. Let me lay out this scenario.

A tornado just went through a small town. First responders have arrived and already started search and rescue operations. The communications control operator is looking over the status of the CR system in the disaster area. He brings up a display of detected narrow band signals that the CR system has localized to the disaster area.

So he sits back and starts jumping through audio snippits of received radio chatter. Nothing un-normal until he hits a transmission on FRS channel 3 The sound of a little child can be heard saying “mommy !!! Daddy!!! Can you hear me? I need help I can’t get out!!!!!!!!! The door won’t open!!!!!! “
The operator quickly hits a button to see which units in the field are detecting that transmission to localize it, then he alerts the units in the field and forwards them the frequency so they can directly listen to the person in distress and try to make direct two way contact as they move into his location.


During disaster responses, it will give responders a while new method of directly interacting with the public. A public that it’s self will have ubiquitous access to two way communications equipment.

It would also help nullify a problem that FEMA and other agencies have noted time and time again. The loss of public communications when the cellular network goes down. Now the public will have a short range communications system to fall back on that does not rely on the cellular network. And the first responders in the field will be able to directly communicate with them without the help of a cellular network. During times of calm, the two way radio bands would be rarely used by most people. But during communications outages, that is when the radios would come out in force.


As I stated, a whole new paradigm.
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Old 06-01-2015, 7:32 AM
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And before people start saying…… “Yes but if the cellular network goes down at any one time, they most likely won’t have a two way radio on hand.)

That is where a product like this changes the paradigm.

INFINITY - Shenzhen Outfone Technology Co., Ltd.

Or this…

Rangerfone G20 GPS Intercom Military Mobile Phone UHF Two-way Radio IP67 Waterproof Two-Way Radio, Accessories | Radioddity


In a world with a CR system, A person on a cellular call with first responders during an emergency, and the cellular system drops out from storm damage. No problem, drop over to UHF and obtain direct communications with units in the field.

Heck, the CR system may be able to transmit a mock cellular control signal that would allow cellphones in the field to log in on their native frequency band, and make a direct call to the communications control van in the field. No 400 to 470Mhz even needed.

With such technology in the field, the possible ways of dealing with evolving situations in the field would almost be limitless for a cognitive radio system operator..
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Old 06-01-2015, 9:20 AM
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I have a couple of Alinco DJ-G29T handhelds and they do at least 902 to 928MHz transmit and receive out of the box, front panel programmable with no mods. They are only 1w but otherwise fit your category. I also got a couple of TPL 20w 900MHz amplifiers off Ebay for $10 ea and they work great with the Alinco HTs.
prcguy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatchett View Post
Snip....

If you look at the cheap radios that the FCC allowed to hit the market. All of the full programmable analog ones operate below 700mhz. There is not ONE that I have found that will transmit on frequencies above 700mhz. That fact still holds true. There is countless more models available than there was a couple years ago. But the 700Mhz bulkhead still stands. There is quad band radios, that will do 10m 6m 2m and 440, but there is still not one single 900mhz front panel programmable 50W, or even 5W frequency agile radio on the market. Wonder why?

.
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Old 06-01-2015, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prcguy View Post
I have a couple of Alinco DJ-G29T handhelds and they do at least 902 to 928MHz transmit and receive out of the box, front panel programmable with no mods. They are only 1w but otherwise fit your category. I also got a couple of TPL 20w 900MHz amplifiers off Ebay for $10 ea and they work great with the Alinco HTs.
prcguy
Um……. News flash.
That is the 33cm ham band.
It’s a standard “band locked” transceiver.
You could not type in and talk on a public service frequency if your life depended on it.

It’s like my saying a 2M 144 to 148Mhz radio is a frequency agile radio.

Um….. No.

902 to 928 is a 2.9% relative frequency spread.

Which is about the same relative spread of a 144 to 148Mhz band locked radio.
That being 2.8%.

When you start talking about a 28% relative band spread (136 to 175) or 30% band spread (400 to 520) that covers a multitude of traditional operating bands. Ham, FRS, GMRS, MURS, Marine, commercial LMR, public safety LMR. All accessible by a press of a button, then we can talk about a front panel programmable frequency agile radio.

A radio with 30% frequency spread in the 800/900Mhz area would cover.
700 to 910Mhz or 800 to 1040Mhz

Now if you have a chicom radio that can transmit at any frequency you want from 800 to 1Ghz that is available with quantity discount, and free shipping from amazon.com or newegg, then please inform me, because I would be very interested in it’s specs.

I personally wouldn’t care if it was a mobile, or handheld. Up to this point, I haven’t seen anything remotely close.
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Old 06-01-2015, 11:37 AM
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WTH did I just read...


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Old 06-01-2015, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by kayn1n32008 View Post
WTH did I just read...


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Up to this point the vhf 2 way radio world so far avoided the progression of technology for the most part. I think that isolation is going to come to an end pretty soon. Things are going to be changing very quickly. The standard confines and organization of the VHF/UHF two way radio industry is going to be disappear.

Yes it’s some times hard for the mind to adjust to a new paradigm.

Like telling someone in the 1970’s that in 40 years they would be using an I pad to watch netflix while walking through the forest on a hiking trail.

They would just look at you like you lost your mind.
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Old 06-01-2015, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatchett View Post

In a world with a CR system, A person on a cellular call with first responders during an emergency, and the cellular system drops out from storm damage. No problem, drop over to UHF and obtain direct communications with units in the field.
What 'units in the field'?

You mean first responders?

NOT ever going to happen. That would create pure chaos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatchett View Post
Heck, the CR system may be able to transmit a mock cellular control signal that would allow cellphones in the field to log in on their native frequency band, and make a direct call to the communications control van in the field. No 400 to 470Mhz even needed.



With such technology in the field, the possible ways of dealing with evolving situations in the field would almost be limitless for a cognitive radio system operator..

Nothing of this post even makes remote sense to me. There is a reason the public does not get to call first responders in the field directly(this IS what services like 911, and 000 are for.

The chaos that would happen would be uncontrolled. Not to mention the abuses that would happen(think Ray Ray)
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Old 06-01-2015, 12:41 PM
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Default It’s starting. Radio Armageddon is at hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatchett View Post
Up to this point the vhf 2 way radio world so far avoided the progression of technology for the most part. I think that isolation is going to come to an end pretty soon. Things are going to be changing very quickly.
Not ever going to happen where I live and work. VHF is extensively used for simple, simplex, mobile to mobile communications, in places where there is little to now cellular coverage. How little? I carry a SPOT AND satellite phone with me.

There is no need to 'progress' VHF communications. The best progression would be a public, province wide 95%/95% mobile coverage VHF network. For the oil patch can have wide area comms, and ditch the cell phone.

No matter, there is still an absolute need for VHF simplex, analogue FM communications in North America that will NEVER go away, or be served by the Cellular cartels. EVER.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatchett View Post
The standard confines and organization of the VHF/UHF two way radio industry is going to be disappear.
Not where I live and work. I use VHF on an almost any day I am working in the oil patch. In ways a cellular/trunking system is not designed for. Talking to random road users all over the province. Using common frequencies on roads/plants/jobs.

BC just implemented a 30-ish channel, VHF simplex, Resource Road frequency plan for the WHOLE province. In many places that don't even have cell service, and will NEVER have cell service. Heck Telus(phone cartel in Canada) still provides plain old VHF radio phone (152.xxxx paired 5.26MHz up. The kind you key up a plain old VHF radio on the correct channel for 4 seconds and a Radio Phone Operator asks you for your 'N' or 'H' number and completes the phone call for you old school, like 1970-80's old school... Long before Motorola developed the first analogue cell phone.)service in British Columbia.

Why? Because 800/1700/1900/2100/2500MHz PCS/AWS/Cellular does NOT play nice in the terrain of BC, and at half a million per site, it is not ever going to get the number of sites needed to cover a province the size of BC(take Maine, New England, Rode Island, New York, and Newhampsire, and you would still have space left for more land)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatchett View Post
They would just look at you like you lost your mind.
Kinda like how I am looking at you. Not trying to be rude, but I seriously doubt you truly understand who, and how, non public safety users utilize VHF outside the Lower 48. Especially in Alaska/Western and Northern Canada.
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Old 06-01-2015, 1:09 PM
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Even in the Lower 48, a totally integrated, frequency-agile cognitive broadband all-purpose radio network that covers everywhere is a pipe dream.
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Old 06-01-2015, 1:10 PM
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Quote:
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Even in the Lower 48, a totally integrated, frequency-agile cognitive broadband all-purpose radio network that covers everywhere is a pipe dream.

Very true.
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Old 06-01-2015, 1:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayn1n32008 View Post
What 'units in the field'?

You mean first responders?

NOT ever going to happen. That would create pure chaos.




Nothing of this post even makes remote sense to me. There is a reason the public does not get to call first responders in the field directly(this IS what services like 911, and 000 are for.

The chaos that would happen would be uncontrolled. Not to mention the abuses that would happen(think Ray Ray)
You really need to get up to speed.

What you are calling “pure chaos” Is what the people planning the next generation systems would call “just getting started.

http://www.cs.ucc.ie/~cjs/docs/2014/...scomms2014.pdf


Quote:
Coverage and Mobility — A CR system could offer an advantage in providing coverage and mobility
by acting as the glue to repair a damaged cellular network.
Highly-flexible SDR systems can adapt to multiple standards and services using a common radio interface and general-purpose processing hardware. Such systems could replace damaged cellular sites, providing multiple services over, for example, GSM, TETRA, APCO P25, HSPA, or LTE. Services could be provided and resources should be allocated according to demand. The same ability to provide multiple different standards and services makes CR an ideal solution for linking together heterogeneous wireless communications systems to ensure coverage
of an affected disaster area.
http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_tr/...45v010101p.pdf

Quote:
ETSI TR 102 745 V1.1.1 (2009-10)
The following detailed requirements can be defined in this requirements area:
• RRS should be able to transmit in the wide range of frequencies assigned to Public Safety bands. From
30 MHz to 1 GHz (or more in some specific European countries) on dedicated frequency slots.
• RRS should be able to interoperate and support the most common Public Safety. Commercial and Defense
communication systems (or Radio Access Technologies) including TETRA, APCO 25, Analog PMR,
GSM/UMTS, WiFi, WiMAX and Military communication systems.


This is the underlying principle for the following requirements:
• Support and interoperability with reconfigurable as well as non-reconfigurable terminals.

• Support and interoperability with reconfigurable as well as non-reconfigurable base stations.
ETSI

• A RRS based system should be able to interoperate with non-RRS based system to provide emergency notifications to citizens during emergencies (see reference TR 102 182 [i.5]).
NOTE: RRS should be able to interoperate with non-RRS communication systems not only for direct voice or data communication but also for the management of communication resources including opening and closure of voice/data communications (see clause 9.6).

A specific case of interoperability is when a RRS system can act as a "bridge" between two different non-RRS communication systems. This capability is often called "relay", where voice or data information can be exchange or relayed through the RRS systems.

This is the underlying principle for the following requirements:
• RRS should be able to provide interconnectivity between two or more different non-RRS communication systems both for voice and data communications.

• RRS should be able to relay information like data messages between two or more different non-RRS communication systems both for voice and data communications.
Think about what they are saying for a second. Providing/supporting GSM and UMTS is providing connectivity for cell phones so that the cell phone holders can make an emergency call to get help. Who is the one that will take that call? Most likely the ones providing the emergency cellular coverage (the first responders), unless they are forwarding the call to the standard 911 system.

The latter would be stupid because the 911 operator would not know where the hell the call is coming from, and the people providing the emergency coverage will be in the best position to provide the help the caller wants. They will be able to localize him far easier that the 911 operator station will be able to.

Read them and the many other countless study and future technology strategy papers that have been published by the people that are designing the next generation systems that we will be using in the years to come.
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Old 06-01-2015, 5:19 PM
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Default It’s starting. Radio Armageddon is at hand.

Quote:
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Think about what they are saying for a second.
I took something very different from the one document.

It looks like private companies, providing mobile infrastructure to 'heal' broken coverage.

Majority of it being 'hot spot' cellular/internet service with VSAT back haul. You would still need folks, like 911/000 to answer the call.

It still will not be the Joe fire fighter, or Pat police officer 'answering the phone call' for help in the field. Hopefully the dispatch centre has redundant power, with redundant, non PSTN(IP or Lease line) connections to their Public Safety infrastructure.

I still do not see a day that you invision of just programming what ever you want and talk to who ever you want on VHF and UHF. I also do not see a day where one will legitimately be able to 'just program up' any PS frequency you want when you think it's an emergency, with out some sort of legal repercussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatchett View Post
Providing/supporting GSM and UMTS is providing connectivity for cell phones so that the cell phone holders can make an emergency call to get help. Who is the one that will take that call? Most likely the ones providing the emergency cellular coverage (the first responders), unless they are forwarding the call to the standard 911 system.
Look at the names of the providers... It is not the PSAP agencies, it is the telecom cartels... The very companies that have the failed infrastructure they are healing.

What you see is the telecom cartels answering the phones... Let me know how that works out for you...

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Last edited by kayn1n32008; 06-01-2015 at 5:24 PM..
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Old 06-01-2015, 5:29 PM
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http://www.cs.ucc.ie/~cjs/docs/2014/...scomms2014.pdf


Look at table 2... Only Sysco TacOps comes close to providing anything remotely close... But look at the target user...

I get what you are talking about, but we are not anywhere close to an all mode Helo it in and fix the infrastructure... Not to mention the VSAT propagation delay... Ever use a MSat phone?


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Old 06-01-2015, 11:41 PM
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You made the statement "but there is still not one single 900mhz front panel programmable 50W, or even 5W frequency agile radio on the market" and I responded to it. Sorry if you didn't actually mean a 900MHz front panel programmable radio.....
prcguy

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Originally Posted by Hatchett View Post
Um……. News flash.
That is the 33cm ham band.
It’s a standard “band locked” transceiver.
You could not type in and talk on a public service frequency if your life depended on it.

It’s like my saying a 2M 144 to 148Mhz radio is a frequency agile radio.

Um….. No.

902 to 928 is a 2.9% relative frequency spread.

Which is about the same relative spread of a 144 to 148Mhz band locked radio.
That being 2.8%.

When you start talking about a 28% relative band spread (136 to 175) or 30% band spread (400 to 520) that covers a multitude of traditional operating bands. Ham, FRS, GMRS, MURS, Marine, commercial LMR, public safety LMR. All accessible by a press of a button, then we can talk about a front panel programmable frequency agile radio.

A radio with 30% frequency spread in the 800/900Mhz area would cover.
700 to 910Mhz or 800 to 1040Mhz

Now if you have a chicom radio that can transmit at any frequency you want from 800 to 1Ghz that is available with quantity discount, and free shipping from amazon.com or newegg, then please inform me, because I would be very interested in it’s specs.

I personally wouldn’t care if it was a mobile, or handheld. Up to this point, I haven’t seen anything remotely close.
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Old 06-02-2015, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by prcguy View Post
You made the statement "but there is still not one single 900mhz front panel programmable 50W, or even 5W frequency agile radio on the market" and I responded to it. Sorry if you didn't actually mean a 900MHz front panel programmable radio.....
prcguy
You know what context I am referring to in my statements and you are just picking at nits that don’t exist for some weird demented reason.. Kind of like a person rearranging chairs on a sinking ship. It won’t change the final result. It just makes you feel better.


So be it, have fun.
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Old 06-02-2015, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kayn1n32008 View Post
I still do not see a day that you invision of just programming what ever you want and talk to who ever you want on VHF and UHF. I also do not see a day where one will legitimately be able to 'just program up' any PS frequency you want when you think it's an emergency, with out some sort of legal repercussion.
My whole point is in the future…. There won’t be any dedicated PS frequencies to tune to. All PS will most likely be cognitive radio based. The only people tuning to frequencies will be individuals and small businesses that still use the older radio systems. It will be up to the PS operators if they want to find out what frequencies the individuals and small businesses are operating on, and directly talk to them if the situation requires it. And there won’t be any legal repercussions because there won’t be any laws governing the use of the frequencies. The whole chunk of bandwidth will be relegated to a cognitive radio spectrum commons with no direct allocation to anyone. The CR systems for public service users, or large business users will be able to use it on demand. Or a lonely citizen with a 5W handy talk can program it in and use it on demand. Who ever gets there first will have control of the frequency until they leave.

If you can’t see the basic and simple forces of technology evolution that is leading to such an outcome, then so be it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kayn1n32008 View Post
I took something very different from the one document.

It looks like private companies, providing mobile infrastructure to 'heal' broken coverage.

Majority of it being 'hot spot' cellular/internet service with VSAT back haul. You would still need folks, like 911/000 to answer the call.

It still will not be the Joe fire fighter, or Pat police officer 'answering the phone call' for help in the field. Hopefully the dispatch centre has redundant power, with redundant, non PSTN(IP or Lease line) connections to their Public Safety infrastructure.
Your statements may worth paying attention to if it wasn’t for the fact that there is already companies marketing products almost along those lines.

An air deployable self contained spectrally aware (cognitive) software defined radio system that by it’s self monitors the cellular phone bands looking for mobile phone activity from possible lost people, and can locate those people base on radio observance, or can on demand, provide emulated network connectivity to the cellular device so that first responders can directly talk to the lost person with the victim’s own cell phone even with the total lack of cellular coverage.

That product would be.

LifeSeeker - CENTUM
http://centum.es/wp-content/uploads/LifeSeeker_EN.pdf


It does not “heal broken coverage” it provides an SDR emulated network communications/control channel for an isolated cell phone to connect to so the rescuers can have a direct voice link to the person being rescued.

And that is just with a product that resulted from the early stages of cognitive radio development.

It is just a logical next step to provide on demand LMR/2 way radio connectivity to possible victims that may have LMR/2 way radio assets on hand.

Don’t think for a second that when a true fully integrated and frequency agile cognitive radio network for law enforcement and disaster response is deployed, that such technology and modes of operation won’t be fully streamlined into it.

It is a basic “no brainer” application for the technology for someone that looks at the situation with a truly unbiased point of view.

Then again, I didn’t create this tread to win heated arguments of the moment. I created this thread to give a factual, and unbiased long term view and update on where I see things going.

I made the first post about this subject 5 years ago.
Then I posted another update 2 years ago.
I seen the new information about the FCC and made this thread.
Unless something major happens, then it will probably be two to three years until you see me on this forum again.
But as the years go by, you will see me again.

As I said, I am making longer term observations.
I am in it for the long haul.
What you want to quibble and nit pick about at this moment in time, is of little consequence to me.

So I will be back again in a couple years.
Take care.
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