quick advice please

Status
Not open for further replies.

ridgescan

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
4,778
Location
San Francisco, Ca.
...I am heading out to my favorite radiocomm shop in about two hrs, here's the thing-I discovered that my Diamond D-130J discone does an awsome job on HF-so I need to buy either a duplexer $40-70 bucks so I can employ that antenna between the scanner and R-75, or spend another $30-40 bucks and get another Diamond to put back on the scanner. What say you?
 
N

N_Jay

Guest
If that Discone is doing such an "Awesome job on HF" just how well did the unterminated cable work?

Point is that, that size discone is not much more then a sloppy end to the cable at HF, and most of what you are picking up is from the cable acting as an antenna.

Also, since it is not working in any impedance match manner, you will not find a duplexer will do what you expect and you may get very different results when you put on in-line. You will also probably not get the expected isolation should you try transmitting on it.
 

specman

Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Messages
171
...I am heading out to my favorite radiocomm shop in about two hrs, here's the thing-I discovered that my Diamond D-130J discone does an awsome job on HF

Awesome? Mine is pretty well deaf below 50 MHz so I can't see what you are comparing this to (a small telescopic whip?).

Instead of either of your options get a purpose built antenna for your R-75 or make one. A simple wire type antenna would certainly outperform your current setup by a large margin.
 

kb2vxa

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
6,100
Location
Point Pleasant Beach, N.J.
If it does "an awesome job" on HF you have a serious problem, I suspect discontinuity in the coax shield allowing it to act as an antenna. That being the case your VHF-UHF reception is suffering badly although you may not notice it on strong signals where a hank of wire will do.
 

ridgescan

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
4,778
Location
San Francisco, Ca.
I guess you guys haven't bothered looking at any of my videos I posted elsewhere? All the stuff I am getting there is through that discone. I was using a yagi but it was dragging all the noise in with the signal. The discone gives me a cleaner reliable signal with much better voice. Don't know why this is, but it is. I know you guys know your stuff-I aint gonna mess with you:)-but if what you say is true about the "coax doing the work" (RG8X) then why the cleaner peformance?
 

ridgescan

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
4,778
Location
San Francisco, Ca.
If it does "an awesome job" on HF you have a serious problem, I suspect discontinuity in the coax shield allowing it to act as an antenna. That being the case your VHF-UHF reception is suffering badly although you may not notice it on strong signals where a hank of wire will do.
That discone with its RG8X 20'line is for the scanner. One day I switched it to the R75 and discovered a whole new quality in reception.
 

ridgescan

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
4,778
Location
San Francisco, Ca.
Awesome? Mine is pretty well deaf below 50 MHz so I can't see what you are comparing this to (a small telescopic whip?).

Instead of either of your options get a purpose built antenna for your R-75 or make one. A simple wire type antenna would certainly outperform your current setup by a large margin.
Thanks for the advice but I am getting a ton of stuff here and honestly am very satisfied with that discone! Don't mean to frustrate you but I have limited space so I ran a 2-meter yagi facing east (that is what I compared to) which did a good job. I gotta say though-to be able to get Andrews at 15s all the way here in Ca, the antenna is doing pretty well, no?
 

ridgescan

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
4,778
Location
San Francisco, Ca.
Your 2 meter yagi is just a cleaner termination at HF.
..still no comment on the fact that my end result is BETTER with the discone??? You don't have a theory for that right? If the discone is "just a sloppy end to the coax" then why do I get 1/3rd the noisefloor, a more strong reliable signal from the stations I listen to, PLUS I am getting more stuff too? I have gotten a few solid reponses in another thread about this from guys who use one on HF too. I totally understand what you and Warren are getting at-but I'm telling you that discone and the R-75 work really well together:) and I say anyone with space issues oughta try it out once and see. Especially you guys who have a Diamond up on the roof for your scanner already.
Irregardless, I think I am lucky that I am in a pretty good HF path where I am located-I seem to get more than a lot of people here.
http://www.radioreference.com/forums/shortwave-broadcast/137481-jj130-hf-antenna.html
here's that thread^^
 
Last edited:
N

N_Jay

Guest
..still no comment on the fact that my end result is BETTER with the discone???

Better than what, measured how, at what frequency.

What is the "A" antenna set up, and what is the "B" antenna set up?
 

ridgescan

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
4,778
Location
San Francisco, Ca.
Better than what, measured how, at what frequency.

What is the "A" antenna set up, and what is the "B" antenna set up?
I can see that you won't acknowledge the many statements I have already made that I get great reception on shortwave bands with a Diamond D-130-J discone antenna that was designed for 25-1300mhz.
There, I just said it again. I turn the R-75 on and get...I will state it once again...CLEAN, RELIABLE, STRONG reception with LESS NOISE. Why do I need to compare and measure? If you want I will take more video?

 
Last edited:
N

N_Jay

Guest
OK, well glad it seems better to you.

However, if you plan on convincing others you really need to think about what you are saying.

The issue is the fundamentals of what you are implying go against the very solid science of antennas. Rather than trying to understand the FACTS of the situation, you have chosen to rely on the myth you have built.

Yes, setup "A" with the discone terminating the line could in FACT be better than setup "B" which I think is a yagi of some band terminating the line.

If I had to hazard a guess, the discone has left the shield unterminated and acting as an antenna, and the yagi may have in fact shorted the line at HF frequencies.

I will guarantee you one thing. You antenna set-up is following the science of antenna design. The discone you THINK is the antenna is immaterial to the situation, and there are other factors that are causing the differences you interpret as the discone working so well. Too bad you don't care to understand it.
 

ridgescan

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
4,778
Location
San Francisco, Ca.
OK, well glad it seems better to you.

However, if you plan on convincing others you really need to think about what you are saying.

The issue is the fundamentals of what you are implying go against the very solid science of antennas. Rather than trying to understand the FACTS of the situation, you have chosen to rely on the myth you have built.

Yes, setup "A" with the discone terminating the line could in FACT be better than setup "B" which I think is a yagi of some band terminating the line.

If I had to hazard a guess, the discone has left the shield unterminated and acting as an antenna, and the yagi may have in fact shorted the line at HF frequencies. By the way I am not trying to "convince" others-I merely was offering MY experience and suggested others try a Diamond on HF if they have space problems-it just may give good results.

I will guarantee you one thing. You antenna set-up is following the science of antenna design. The discone you THINK is the antenna is immaterial to the situation, and there are other factors that are causing the differences you interpret as the discone working so well. Too bad you don't care to understand it.
But it WORKS N-Jay:) why be so mean about it? Did you see the last video? Look up transmit times freqs and transmitter locations for the BBC and to what countries they transmit to at 1700UTC. Is this my imagination too? The discone is connected to the R-75 via a 20' line of RG8X (good for HF) uninterrupted with a pl259 connector at each end. How would the discone not "terminate" properly (don't forget it is not too far out of phase with HF freqs)
 
Last edited:
N

N_Jay

Guest
The setup "works" but I doubt the DISCONE works.

Diamond D-130J discone Product Reviews

I have no idea what the impedance of the discone is at your frequencies (Note: HF Covers several octaves so it will be all over the place all over the band)

What is probably "working" is the whip part not the discone and the transmission line acting as an antenna.

You can argue about things "working" all you want, but you don't change the laws of physics.

P.S. Just where am I being "mean" other then my desire not to accept your myth (Diamond D-130J discone good at HF) as fact?
 

Mike_G_D

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,241
Location
Vista, CA
ridgescan,

No disrespect intended but you are arguing with little logic. To initially proclaim that solution B works so well and then ask others for advice concerning augmenting it with specifics dependent equipment (such as a diplexer or duplexer) while not even initially describing what solution A was is, well, very odd logic indeed.

Your argument is sort of analogous to one initially saying that he just found out that washing dishes with a toothbrush works like gangbusters so could someone please provide an effective way to use the same toothbrush for both teeth and dirty dishes! You might logically expect many others to point out how ineffective a toothbrush is for dish washing. But then said, "enlightened one" responds back with "But look how well it works! It works so much better that what I was using before!" To which others would logically ask: "Well, what were you using before?" To which the response is "Um, it was made out of wood...but don't you see how well this toothbrush works!" So after some more back and forths in the conversation it is finally revealed that the "wooden object" was a toothpick. I believe you can see where this is going.

Obviously the above is silly. But you asked an antenna specific question in an antenna specific forum and are surprised that you are getting the skeptical and critical responses that you have gotten from somewhat knowledgeable individuals. To use the above, admittedly silly, analogy again, they are trying to tell you to forget about using the toothbrush for dish washing and use a good brush or scrubbing pad designed for that purpose. Of course if all you have available are a toothbrush and a toothpick then, yes, a toothbrush would be a better choice. BUT...I personally do not think it is something to proclaim as an incredible discovery which requires major consideration (except, I suppose, amongst those large brush challenged indiviuals with somewhat limited knowledge of dish washing).

I used to use a scanner antenna occasionally with a general coverage HF receiver simply because I had no other choice at the time. But I expected it to work, maybe, as a shortend whip at the higher HF band and as "who knows what" on the lower frequencies; as N_Jay said, the line is then pretty much the antenna. I knew this and certainly knew it was a horrible solution but it was all I had at the time. I, personally, didn't see the need to advertise it as a great solution - it was simply "there". If a wet noodle is all you have, well...you get the point.

As N_Jay has pointed out, band specific devices such as diplexers and duplexers (I think you are really asking for a "diplexer" in this case) are designed to work within specific bands and with specific termination impedances. It is not likely that your discone + coax HF antenna will present a good 50 or 75 ohm unbalanced impedance within the lower HF band to the diplexer, splitter, whatever. So your results will be unpredictable at best.

If you are stuck with what you have and cannot put up a better suited antenna (such as a long wire, etc.) then I would suggest a diplexer with a low pass filter on one port (for the HF) with a cutoff around 40MHz and a high pass filter on the other port (with a cutoff at say 25MHz). But, again, you may find the performance not what you would expect so would consider the discone a temporary solution until you can find a better HF specific antenna.

-Mike
 
Last edited:

ridgescan

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
4,778
Location
San Francisco, Ca.
I apologize to you both for my lack of knowledge on this stuff. I don't want to mislead anyone here. I respect you guys and I am learning from you. I hate to be stubborn but this setup is a great performing setup and I wil shut up and enjoy it because as I have said before I am very happy with it. I had said before that I have space limitations up there on my roof, no space for a longwire, so I have to improvise. I said several times before that I was running a 2-meter 4-element yagi pointed east and it was a decent SW getter for me (there's even video of that one in the "is hf sw mw dead" thread) until this past Monday when I tried the discone on the R-75. I am not trying to convince anyone here of a myth, I thought I was offering my great experience with it as a possible thing that would work for others who live in apartments too (I'm lucky they let me even have anything up there). The videos I posted especially the one I uploaded this A.M. with a BBC transmission to Asia (I never got that one before) I am trying to give you examples of how well this has worked for me
So like I said I'm sorry everyone-don't listen to my joy at this and dont bother with the video because no matter how real and effective this antenna is on my R75, my knowledge doesn't measure up-oh and what PRC Guy said about how a Diamond has worked for him on his Yaesu and the knowledge he possesses on this antenna don't matter.
I also regularly monitor VHF low and UHF on my glassmount 800MHz whip in the truck with decent clarity but I suppose that is a myth too.
 
N

N_Jay

Guest
I think you took the comments all wrong.

Rather than argue that "it" was working so well, you might consider engaging in a conversation about how you have it hooked up and what has worked better and what has worked worse.

I am sure in the end we all would have learned from your experiments.
 

ridgescan

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
4,778
Location
San Francisco, Ca.
I got you N Jay-the whole thing is unfortunately you aren't right here with me experiencing the vast improvement on that damm thing-all I can do is film a 45 secon quip because stupid photobucket only allows 100 MBs at a time. If you were here you would be impressed I think.
Anyways I wound up getting a new Diamond for the scanners so I'll have two up there:D
 

Mike_G_D

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,241
Location
Vista, CA
But...the video part isn't the deal. No amount of video showing what you are picking up isn't going to really "prove" anything. Before (using a 2 meter Yagi) and after (v/uhf discone) videos would show improvement with the discone based on what you said but other than that...?

When you first stated what solution A was you said it was "a yagi" and left it at that (your second post); you did not specify that it was a 2 meter Yagi until your fourth post. Prior to your second post I had no idea what you were comparing your results to - it could just have been no antenna at all in which case, yeah, something is better than nothing. And with the second post of "a yagi" being solution A I actually was thinking something like a 10 or 20 meter beam antenna and certainly NOT a 2 meter antenna! Even pointed east, as you say, a 2 meter beam would be nothing at HF just another oddball termination for the coax. So the discone proved a better oddball termination for the antenna/line than the 2 meter Yagi, ok...? Again, sorry, for brevity I'll stick to my silly analogy - a toothbrush is a better pot scrubber than a toothpick. And keep in mind the "water pressure"! If the guy with the miracle toothbrush shows video of how clean the dishes are after using the toothbrush but neglects to show that his faucet has extremely high water pressure (meaning the water pressure is doing alot of the "work") then that is incomplete data even if he also shows how it improved over the toothpick.

In your case, you are possibly in a very good location and am getting very good propagation at the frequencies you are listening to. Propagation varies hugely with frequency. Just within the HF band it varies significantly by time of day, time of year, frequency, as well as location.

Any antenna will "work" on any frequency but optimally on only one or a relatively narrow range around its center designed for frequency (or frequencies if a multiband design).

If you have space for a second discone on the roof I might really consider a vertical HF multiband trap antenna or, since you are just receiving, even an external active HF SWL vertical antenna. Another restricted space antenna might be a loop design with tuner. Long wires are not the only HF SWL solution.

One experiment you might try is to disconnect the coax from your R75 and find a way to attach JUST the outer shield of the coax to the center conductor SO239 connector on the R75. You could use a short piece of hookup wire wrapped around (tightly) the PL259 (coax from antenna) outer shield then inserted into the SO239 center pin hole on the R75 (you may have to "bunch up" or "wad" the wire depending on its gauge to firmly fit into the SO239 center pin hole). If at all possible, try to ground the outer shield of the R75's SO239 receptacle to a good ground, preferably direct earth ground. You may be surprised how well this works; this will use the outer conductor of the discone's coax as a long wire. I am guessing that this may work as good as or better than the discone with coax attached in the normal fashion. Noise level may be worse or better, though, and may be heavily dependant on the grounding. If this really works for you then you might consider a switch rigged up to switch the coax outer shield into the R75 and disconnect the scanner (leaving the scanner in line may likely ground the coax shield). I don't know if the R75 has screw terminals as another antenna input option but if it does than that would be a much better choice as the SO239 low impedance unbalanced input is not really ideal for this. If you only have the SO239 then I might consider a low cost receive only or QRP long wire antenna tuner to attach between the SO239 on the R75 and the outer shield of the coax from the discone (scanner disconnected, of course). This might be the ideal solution for you.

If the above is confusing feel free to PM me and I'll try and clarify. I honestly think deliberately using the coax outer shield as a long wire into a tuner with a decent ground might be a great limited space receive only SWL option for you. At least it's worth a try and probably less expensive than getting a second discone and second run of coax!

-Mike
 

kb2vxa

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
6,100
Location
Point Pleasant Beach, N.J.
OK have it your way, I'm not going to argue with one so unwilling to learn, you're right and everybody else is wrong. If you think it's working properly it's alright with me, it's not my antenna and not my problem. Oh and one other thing, there is no such word as "irregardless". Adding a negative prefix to a negative suffix they cancel each other leaving the root word regard meaningless and out of context. The word is "regardless", without regard to.

Alright, I'm a big meanie striking a low blow and I deserve a spanking so go ahead and flame me. (;->)

"One experiment you might try is to disconnect the coax from your R75 and find a way to attach JUST the outer shield of the coax to the center conductor SO239 connector on the R75."
I see what you're getting at Mike, we convert other antennas to "long wires" simply by unscrewing the ferrule and pulling the shell body back a fraction of an inch breaking the ground connection. It's a lot easier letting the distributed C of the cable couple RF to the outer conductor and in any case the whole shebang becomes the antenna. This is what I think happened anyway but he refuses to listen let alone run a simple continuity check.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top