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Scanner / Receiver Antennas For discussion of any type of receiving antenna used by a scanner or receiver base, mobile or handheld.

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Old 12-02-2012, 3:56 PM
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Default This may sound like a dumb question...

Not sure where to post this so I am sorry if this is the wrong place and please feel free to move it to a more appropriate place if needed.

What does it mean when someone says 1/4 wave or 5/8 wave when describing antennas? How will this affect me choosing or modifying an antenna?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 12-02-2012, 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by awattam View Post
Not sure where to post this so I am sorry if this is the wrong place and please feel free to move it to a more appropriate place if needed.

What does it mean when someone says 1/4 wave or 5/8 wave when describing antennas? How will this affect me choosing or modifying an antenna?

Thanks in advance.
5/8th wave antennas actually have better high radiation angle than a half wave or quarter wave. The real difference is zero to 2 dB in favor of the 5/8th wave antenna at most useful angles.

The 5/8th wave also clears ground clutter better.

It is virtually impossible to find a repeater too high for the take off angle of most antennas, so the real concern is average angle gain. I'd go with a 5/8th wave on a car roof.
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Old 12-02-2012, 5:47 PM
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What does it mean when someone says 1/4 wave or 5/8 wave when describing antennas? How will this affect me choosing or modifying an antenna?
An antenna should be resonate at the frequency being transmitted on. The most simple type of antenna in a mobile environment is the 1/4 wave antenna. The radiating element is 1/4 wave length long. This design gives a proper 50 ohm impedance match to the transmitter. The design has a radiation pattern that is very even around the antenna and between the horizon and overhead.
A 5/8's wave length antenna does not provide a 50 ohm impedance match on it's own, so they will have a coil at the bottom of the antenna. This design provides some additional gain, but flattens out the radiation pattern more. There are lobes directed more towards the horizon, and less upward.

On the VHF band, a 1/4 wave antenna will be about 18 inches long.
A 5/8's wave antenna will be about 46 inches long.

An easy way to think about the antenna gain is to think of a lightbulb. A single lightbulb on a flat plane will radiate light out more or less equally in all directions. This is similar to a 1/4 wave antenna.
Now, think of that lightbulb inside a light house. The Fresnel lenses focus that single light out more towards the horizon. A ship at sea would be able to see the focused beam of light better than the plain lightbulb.
Different variations of antennas would appear to have different patterns, with most vertical antennas using different designs to focus more or less of the power out towards the horizon.
So, you may be asking yourself "why doesn't everyone just use a higher gain antenna?" Well, there are various reasons.
Think of a sail boat with the antenna up at the very top of the mast. If that antenna was a high gain design, the signal would be focused out towards the horizon. Great, you'd say! Well, now add in the rolling of the sail boat out in rough seas. each time the sail boat rolls off in one direction or the other the antenna pattern is sending your signal down into the water or up into the sky. For this very reason, most sail boats have low gain antennas to help reduce this. The common design used is a 1/2 wave antenna that has the added benefit of not needing a ground plane underneath it to work. This is ideal when the antenna is of top of a thin mast.
So, using that example, you _might_ find that using a higher gain antenna out on the flat plains would work well for providing better coverage. Now, put that vehicle in the mountains where the repeaters are up high above on the peaks. If you had a high gain antenna most of your signal would be focused into the mountains. In this situation a 1/4 wave antenna would likely work better.

As the old saying goes, "you can't get something for nothing", and that applies here. Higher gain antennas isn't a source of free power. Higher gain antennas just focus what power is fed into them more towards the horizon, kind of like a light house. In some instances though, you don't want just one narrow band of radiation going out mainly towards the horizon. This is where a lower gain antenna might be more beneficial.

Now, your milage may vary, sometimes it takes some experimenting to find out what works best for you. Often people will go out and purchase the highest gain antenna they can find thinking they'll be able to "talk farther". Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. Chances are, a mobile transmitter out on the plains will be able to reach a far off repeater with a quarter wave antenna, or a high gain antenna might work well in the mountains.

Other things to consider about antenna design has to do with how high profile or low profile you want the antenna to be. On my full size truck, a quarter wave antenna gives me the results I want here with mountains around me. I also benefit from a lower profile install and don't have to worry about hitting ever tree branch along the way.

Often something you can do is to watch for police cars or fire trucks in your area. See what kinds of antennas they are using. Chances are they are using a specific design for a good reason, years of use has led them to favor a specific design.

On a base antenna, you have all the same variable, but you can add in some additional tricks. Commercial base antennas have a feature that is referred to as "down tilt". Down tilt is when they use certain designs to bring the radiation pattern downwards from the horizon. A high gain antenna up on a mountain top might have poor coverage down near the base of the mountain due to more power being focused off towards the horizon. Down tilt can be used to lower the patter more towards the area around the mountain or tower.

When it all comes down to it, you can guess, run the numbers, spend hours agonizing over it, but for hobby use, sometimes it's just easier to experiment a bit and see what happens. That is what is fun about this sort of stuff, overall, antennas are cheap and experimenting around and learning how each design works is part of the fun.
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Old 12-02-2012, 6:17 PM
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I appreciate the explanations..thanks
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Old 12-02-2012, 6:45 PM
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5/8th wave antennas actually have better high radiation angle than a half wave or quarter wave. The real difference is zero to 2 dB in favor of the 5/8th wave antenna at most useful angles.

The 5/8th wave also clears ground clutter better.

It is virtually impossible to find a repeater too high for the take off angle of most antennas, so the real concern is average angle gain. I'd go with a 5/8th wave on a car roof.

There seems to be a difference of opinion on the way a 5/8 wave antenna functions. To start with a 1/4 wave antenna is the one with the high angle of radiation. The 5/8 wave antenna has a higher gain, but keeps the energy down close to the horizon. This is why it is chosen so often for an antenna used out on the far reaches of s radio system coverage.

A quick flip through most antenna books will prove who is correct on this one.
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Old 12-02-2012, 7:37 PM
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Here's an article you might want to read: http://www.k0bg.com/images/pdf/mobile_vhf_ant.pdf
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Old 12-02-2012, 8:17 PM
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To the original question.
A radio frequency signal travels a certain distance in one cycle. That distance is typically referred to as the wave length of some particular frequency. That 1/4, or 5/8 refers to the length of the antenna for a particular frequency. It's 1/4 of a full wave length, or 5/8s of a wave length. There are particular fractions of a wave length that have benefits that other fractions of that wave length don't have. All antennas have radiation patterns that are different, have different shapes. Some of those shapes are more beneficial than others, puts a signal where you want it to go (or where you want to hear from) better than others.
That's what those fraction numbers refer to. There are quite a few other important characteristics about antennas, their length is just one of them. It's not as simple as it seems sometimes.
- 'Doc
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Old 12-03-2012, 3:12 AM
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Here's an article you might want to read: http://www.k0bg.com/images/pdf/mobile_vhf_ant.pdf


Jim202 is 100% correct - 5/8 wavelength antenna has a tighter and lower rad angle than a 1/4 wavelength antenna

This is an irrefutable fact.

With respect k3cfc, can I ask you to go back and read very carefully the article you have referenced.

There are 2 points I pick up from that article: firstly the author states quite clearly that 80% of the time the 1/4 had a higher rad angle, and 2nd (which is a far more important as far as I am concerned), the author states also that it is not possible to predict mobile antenna performance across vehicles i.e. you have to test each antenna type on each different vehicle type.

Allow me to also add if I may that I have probably somewhere between 5 000hrs - 10 000hrs in my 30yr professional career modeling antennas on hundreds of vehicle types (mostly military), and on CAD programs, and while it is indeed possible to model circumstances so a 5/8wavelength produces a higher rad angle than a 1/4wave, the rule none-the-less is: the 5/8wavelength antenna has a lower and tighter rad angle than a 1/4wavelength antenna. It is also my experience that this general rule is by and large the rule with respect to mobile vehicle installations as well.

This is certainly my experience over time and I've stated it as my professional opinion in many publications over the years, so equally I must stand to be corrected. Please do so if you can.
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Old 12-03-2012, 8:12 AM
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Jim202 is 100% correct - 5/8 wavelength antenna has a tighter and lower rad angle than a 1/4 wavelength antenna

This is an irrefutable fact.

With respect k3cfc, can I ask you to go back and read very carefully the article you have referenced.

There are 2 points I pick up from that article: firstly the author states quite clearly that 80% of the time the 1/4 had a higher rad angle, and 2nd (which is a far more important as far as I am concerned), the author states also that it is not possible to predict mobile antenna performance across vehicles i.e. you have to test each antenna type on each different vehicle type.

Allow me to also add if I may that I have probably somewhere between 5 000hrs - 10 000hrs in my 30yr professional career modeling antennas on hundreds of vehicle types (mostly military), and on CAD programs, and while it is indeed possible to model circumstances so a 5/8wavelength produces a higher rad angle than a 1/4wave, the rule none-the-less is: the 5/8wavelength antenna has a lower and tighter rad angle than a 1/4wavelength antenna. It is also my experience that this general rule is by and large the rule with respect to mobile vehicle installations as well.

This is certainly my experience over time and I've stated it as my professional opinion in many publications over the years, so equally I must stand to be corrected. Please do so if you can.
Ham radio is a hobby. it is supposed to be fun experimenting to see what works in your situation. i could have said to the o.p. go buy a arrl antenna book and all your questions will be answered but i didn't. instead i put up a link to a reference of what he was looking for. i don't dispute the 5,000 to 10,000 hours over 30 years you have in modeling antennas with a cad program. but compared to the 100 of thousands of hours by licensed ham operators and compiled in a book ( ARRL ANTENNA BOOK ) i am sorry to say there is no comparison. back before there were computers and cad programs hams were constructing antennas of all kinds. ( computer ,cad programs hence appliance operators ) so instead of challenging me for a link i posted why don't you direct your energy to the original poster so he can get his correct antenna that will work in any terrain.


K3CFC
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by k3cfc View Post
Ham radio is a hobby. it is supposed to be fun experimenting to see what works in your situation. i could have said to the o.p. go buy a arrl antenna book and all your questions will be answered but i didn't. instead i put up a link to a reference of what he was looking for. i don't dispute the 5,000 to 10,000 hours over 30 years you have in modeling antennas with a cad program. but compared to the 100 of thousands of hours by licensed ham operators and compiled in a book ( ARRL ANTENNA BOOK ) i am sorry to say there is no comparison. back before there were computers and cad programs hams were constructing antennas of all kinds. ( computer ,cad programs hence appliance operators ) so instead of challenging me for a link i posted why don't you direct your energy to the original poster so he can get his correct antenna that will work in any terrain.


K3CFC
k3cfc

"why don't you direct your energy to the original poster so he can get his correct antenna that will work in any terrain.......?"



Hang on a sec, k3cfc, that is not really the point is it? Lets stick to the correction I offered up, then we can debate how I should have gone about replying, and to who my reply should have been directed.

As I read what the OP asked, it was about the difference between 1/4wave & 5/8wave antennas. One of the differences, which mmckenna noted, relates to the rad angle (and therefore the appropriateness for a given antenna in a given application - bang on the mark, and he no doubt coul dhave added other differences I am sure).

But it was in respect of your comment about antenna/rad angles that my reply was about. If OP asks on the forum about what antenna best suited for what enviroment I will be happy to share an opinion with him.

One problem with forums is that when a correction is made to something a member wrote it is so easy for that to come across in the wrong way, and this is what happens, so as a rule, I tend to say nothing for this very reason.

I certainly was not trying to show you up, make a fool of you or indicate you didn't know what you were talking about. If you are a HAM theres' no question about it - you have at the very least a grasp of the fundamentals, and quite likely a lot more knowledge (depending on exactly what HAM qualification one has). So before I say anything else, I offer a sincere apology if that is how my comments were percieved. They certainly are never meant in that way.

And, you are quite correct in stating this is a hobby that is meant to be fun. I agree with you. I found the PDF link you referenced as an interesting read, but the point remains: that article contradicted your assertion in respect of 5/8 wavelength antenna rad angle -versus- 1/4 wavelength antenna rad angle. It also conflicts with my knowledge & understanding of the subject.

If you wish to stand by your opinion, fair enough, but I would be grateful if you would qualify it in some credible way: e.g could you post up a link to some credible article/s or on-line publications which support what you have said, or could you indicate which ARRL handbook supports your standpoint (i.e. which year/edition & the page would be great as well) so that I (and anyone else for that matter who may be interested) can read the article and come to an informed decision for themselves.

If you feel that as I offered the correction it is up to me to qualify what I have claimed, first (i.e. before you), I am happy to do so.

If you can demonstrate that my statement regards 5/8wavelength antenna has a higher rad angle than a 1/4wave, not only will you have undermined a lot of the work I have undertaken over the years, but I will eat humble pie big time.

Last but not least, a brief reply to your comment in inverted brackets quoted right at the start: if you go through a lot of my historical postings, you will see I have often not only answered an OP's question where I can but also spent quite a bit of putting my reply into context I believe is appropriate and is going to give the OP the knowledge he needs to understood the answer, and/or put it into context. I agree with you when you say, you could have just told the OP to go buy an ARRL handbook, in that this is not what forums are about. Your point is well taken as well

Sincerely

Patrick

Last edited by benbenrf; 12-03-2012 at 11:19 AM..
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