Antenna Suggestions: Work, Home, Mobile

[jmtyra]

Hello everyone

Looking for antenna suggestions for work, home and mobile for use with a handheld Uniden 396T scanner.

Frequencies: Mainly scanning analog trunked systems in the 850 ~ 870 MHz range, but also scanning some conventional channels around 450 ~ 470 Mhz and 26~50 Mhz (but those are not as important). Listening range is probably a mute point, given my restrictions (outlined below) but for reference it's about a 25 mile radius in the central/north central Oklahoma City metro area. The terrain is pretty flat, with scattered tall buildings here and there in clusters. Closest primary transmitter for the trunk system that I normally listen to is roughly ~12 miles from my home location and ~8 miles from my work location.

Work: 2nd floor, office building, internal room with no windows and a covered ceiling roughly 10' ~ 12' high. However, there is about ~15' above the covered ceiling to the actual 'hard' ceiling (bottom of the 3rd floor) in which I could install something. Mounting would be easy, as there are large zig-zagging beams running across that have metal bars running at angles between the two beam that I could affix items to. However, there are florescent lights in this room, but I don't know if they would interfere with the signal or not. Room is secured, so there is no concern of other people finding/stealing the antenna.

Home: I live in an apartment on the 1st floor, has to be indoors because I have no porch or deck, or 'idle' space outside. Apartments suck...but on the plus side I don't care how large the antenna will be, or how it looks, as long as it works good. Since I can't place anything outside, my ground plane is pretty much non-existent unless I put something together.

Mobile: 4-door sedan install, it's a lease so no drilling or mag-mount. So far, considering a NMO trunk lip mount (with unknown antenna) or an Antenex low-profile antenna, like the [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]TRAB821/18503 [/FONT]model (shown here). However, will the low-profile antenna provide poor performance versus a normal full-height antenna? The trunk lip mount is ok, too, but the overall antenna height needs to be under 8' from the pavement to keep from hitting those damn 'low-height' bars at fast-food drive through windows and other places. Here is a picture of the low-profile antenna I was thinking about...but correct me if I'm an idiot to consider it versus a normal antenna. Either way, it must be tolerant to high wind speeds: driving ~70MPH with storm wind speeds gusting up to 50MPH = upwards of 120MPH sheering force...

Please let me know if any additional information is needed -- I know it bugs everyone when people ask questions and don't give you the information you need.


<> Thank You for your help!! <>

 

[btritch]

Suggestion...

Ok, Here's my opinion as I have known someone in this same situation.. First of all, Let's tackle to office Problem...

NOW, For the office, Here's what I'd say, Since you have so much room between your ceiling and the top ceiling of the 3rd floor, I'd invest in a base scanner antenna and mount it in the attic between the two roofs and see if that helps, That would probably work better than nothing, yes you would probably get some interference from the flourecent lights but it wouldn't be that bad if the antenna were to be above them such as in the attic. That is the best suggestion I can give you is to try that first since you have no windows. I think this would do pretty good depending on what the outer walls of the building are constructed of, But I would still take that into consideration as the base antenna would have more of a range than a mobile or rubber duckie etc. would. That's about the best advice I can give you as far as the work place goes. Hope it helps!

Now, Let's tackle the apartment problem...IF you have any attic space between you and the upper floor if you're on the bottom or between your roof and the outside roof if you're up stairs then I would try the same thing that I would try for the office which would work even better since it is probably a wooden structure type building. However, if this wasn't a possibily then I would try getting an on glass scanner antenna like you'd use in a car but use it on your apartment window, Yes they're a little expensive but if they work it'd be worth it, Another thing would be mounting your ground plane to a piece of metal and mounting the metal to a small pole and sticking it in the ground outside the apartment. Otherwise about the only thing I know to try is if you have a TV antenna you're using to get your TV signal, I'd try that, Otherwise you're stuck with the Rubber Duckie antenna that comes with it. That's about all I have for this! Hope it helps here too!

Now, Lastly, Let's tackle that Sedan, Here's what I would suggest here, You could do like you said and use a trunk lip mount or they make an adapter that will hook it directly into your car's FM antenna. I don't know how hard they are to install but you might consider this as well. They also make them in a window mount bracket I do believe. Either one of these would be considerations. Other than that just the original antenna might work depending on if it's metallic paint or not. I hope these suggestions help and prove to be good ones, If you have anymore questions just ask! Glad To Be Of Assistance To You!
Once Again, Good Luck To You!

 

[jmtyra]

Thanks for your suggestions, Brian -- I do appreciate it! =)

The office one sounds good, I just have to find an antenna that performs well in the frequency range, which should be easy. Just a little web-surfing. ::grin::

On the apartment, good idea on the window mount! The window is recessed with a brick wall on the outside, so hiding an antenna should be fairly easy. Besides, if the landlord finds it (which I doubt) I'll just take it down, no biggie. =D
I think that'll be my best bet, b/c there is not a gap between my ceiling and their floor...well, at least that I've found or been able to access. =(

For mobile, from what I've read, the reception on the FM antenna is just so-so for scanners. Good idea, but it's a leased car so I don't want to risk messing up anything on the radio wiring. The type of paint is unknown, I'll have to research that, since something like metallic paint could put a hamper on things! I guess it'll make a nice ground plane with the trunk lip mount, though!

EDIT: forgot to include some items =)

 

[mike_webb59]

The 800-MHz frequencies are usually for Trunked radio systems that supposedly have poor long-distance coverage but better penetration into congestion and structures for their handhelds.

There's also a train of thought that handhelds work best with handheld-type of antennas and base units/mobiles work best with their respective antennas; i.e. don't plan to set up a 60-foot mast for a Pro-96 or BC330T.

With these notes, I agree with the idea of glass or desktop-mounted antennas and the FM coupler in the car.

HTH, Mike

 

[N1BHH]

My suggestion for home starts with a question. Do you have an air conditioner? A mag mount on that will help out.

Same thing with a car, mag mount. Larsen mag mounts are excellent, I've had mine for years and they don't scratch. My mag mounts have NMO-150/450/800 and NMO-2/70 on them with no problems. Now that Antennex antenna should be mounted high, not down on the deck. High and in the clear is best on any mobile antenna install. Especially with a unity gain antenna.

As for work, same thing, get a mag mount out on a metallic window sill or air conditioner, nothing inside will work well for you. Where there's metal inside you have negative receive. Get it outside.

You may think I'm mag mount happy here, but I am not. It's the quickest easiest way to place an antenna, and it can be moved when you want to find a hot spot or when someone like a landlord comes along and say get rid of it. Any mag mount works as long as it's on metal. My mag mounts at home are on the air conditioner and I'm very satisfied with them.

 

[mjthomas59]

How is your reception with the stock antenna? I didn't catch what type of scanner you have. My first suggestion would be to try the Radioshack 800mhz antenna(not the deluxe just the RS800). This will save you many headaches on trying all the other crazy ideas that are being thrown about. Try the RS800 and if it doesn't work then take it back and nothing is lost.

As far as your car, i'd go with a trunk-lip nmo mount with a maxrad Maxscan1000, or the larsen or antenex equivelant(i don't recall the model numbers for those 2 but they are all nearly identical). This type of antenna will provide coverage exactly where you need it and it is only about 15 inches tall. It is found here(as well as many other retailers)

http://www.theantennafarm.com/catal...oduct_info&cPath=191_192_205&products_id=1052

For the office, you have just described the worst nightmare for monitoring. Zig zag metal beams, metal support braces, putting something between floors... no way, i wouldn't even waste the time. I have several concerns about putting an antenna up in your ceiling. Most office buildings(if not all depending on your building codes) are constructed using metal studs. This will greatly reduce your reception unless you can get away from them. Also the roof and siding material is also an issue, plus the floor above you which is concrete with re-bar running through it(tell me if i'm imagining your office wrong). Trying to get signal through office buildings is pretty much a joke, so i wouldn't get my hopes up too far regardless of antenna choice. I'm not saying it is a lost cause, but the 12 mile distance, and the multi-story office building construction is going to greatly reduce the signal.

For your home, the idea of using your a/c or metal window sill or gutter is a great one. Buying another maxscan1000 or a high gain 800mhz(3DB gain or more, i know 5DB gain are out there for about $30-$40) This is your best shot. You aren't going to see much improvement over a stock antenna by going to the glass-mount, i'd personally be shocked if you saw any at all. Especially talking about exterior windows which are double or triple pane, you are just wasting time. Glass-mounts are designed for thin automotive glass, and even at that they aren't all that good.

Another consideration you need to make, depending on coax length, is buying something at the very least like a quad-shield RG-6 cable. 800mhz fades fast through poor quality cable so skimping here will ruin whatever chance you had at pulling in clear signals.

I'd take a step back before jumping the gun on these installs. Get the RS800 and see what that gets you. The Trunked radio system in my area (Saint Louis City is what im referencing) can't be pulled in from even 2 miles outside the city limits with any antenna combo. Getting 20 mile coverage all depends on how the system was setup.

So after reading that long post, what type of scanner do you have, what kind of reception do you get with the stock antenna, and which if any other antennas have you tried?

 

[jmtyra]

I agree with the idea of glass or desktop-mounted antennas and the FM coupler in the car.

Hi Mike -- thank you for your feedback. =)

My car is a lease, and with my luck on wiring, I'd like to stay away from re-wiring any of the factory antenna/stereo equipment. It may be a simple thing, but I can't afford to muck it up and have to deal with the cost when I turn the car back in. =(

I agree with your point about the antenna being directly related to the radio; thus, I don't plan on doing anything ~too~ crazy, I'd just like to gain a couple of db if possible. :wink:

My suggestion for home starts with a question. Do you have an air conditioner? A mag mount on that will help out.

Hi Clyde -- thank you for your feedback. =)

My heating/cooling is a central indoor unit, so I don't have a window unit to place a mag mount on. That's a really good idea that I didn't think of, I have to give you props for that!! The external cooling unit, also an option (technically), happens to face another building 20ft away so I wouldn't get much gain out of that. Plus the manager's office is only 50ft from there, and they walk by the area frequently. ::sigh::

Same thing with a car, mag mount. [...] I've had mine for years and they don't scratch.

Well that's encouraging to hear -- the one I had before, on my previous car, was for a CB radio antenna and it did a number on my trunk. Have you had any issues with high-velocity winds w/that mount? Just curious, the storms here coming up in Oklahoma (tornadoes, etc) do a number. ::wink::

Where there's metal inside you have negative receive. Get it outside.

Logistical issues w/running anything outside of the inner office area I'm in at work...it'd have to be 200ft and run through 5 walls...not easy to sneak around and do I'm afraid. But, just the rubber duck antenna does decently, so an internal mag mount w/3~5 db gain should do nicely, I hope.

My mag mounts at home are on the air conditioner and I'm very satisfied with them.

Hmmm....well, hell, I am thinking "screw it" and just putting it outside on my external a/c unit and see if they yell at me. They can't evict me (yes, I've read the lease) for something like that as long as I'm not damaging anything, and besides they're pretty laid back as long as you don't cause trouble. Might have to order two...one for home, one for office...heheh...

How is your reception with the stock antenna? I didn't catch what type of scanner you have. My first suggestion would be to try the Radioshack 800mhz antenna

Hi MJ -- thank you for your feedback. =)

With my current antenna, it's actually not ~too~ bad, but I'm missing some frequency traffic (partials, or poor reception) due to a weak signal. It's funny you bring up the RS 800 Mhz antenna -- I have a 396T (in my sig, hehe) which came with the RS 800 antenna as part of the deal. I have not spent much time comparing it to the stock antenna, but it seems to do a good job.

i'd go with a trunk-lip nmo mount

I'm still on the fence between mag-mount and lip-mount. I like the higher plane option for the mag mount, but I like the look and security (high winds, 80 Mph+) of a trunk lip-mount. Plus, it'd be easier to swap antennas. ::sigh:: Choices, choices...but at least I'm down to two!

For the office, you have just described the worst nightmare for monitoring. [...] Trying to get signal through office buildings is pretty much a joke

Ah, my fears confirmed. Ya -- all the feedback I'm getting is not on the positive side for the office situation. But, given that I can get decent reception w/the RS 800 I think a mag mount will only help things...but not perform miracles, though. :roll:

Buying another maxscan1000 or a high gain 800mhz [...] Glass-mounts are designed for thin automotive glass

Heheh -- my apartment uses single-pane glass for it's windows. Sad, I know, but it's cheap rent...go figure. =(
But, I think I'm going to go for a mixture of the two: a mag mount out front, versus out back, because I'd have to run wire through the bathroom for the a/c mount but only the front mount would be via the window of the same room where the scanner is to be used. Maybe if I can find a gain glass mount...but...like you said, they're pretty much junk, so it may not be worth it.

Another consideration you need to make, depending on coax length, is buying something at the very least like a quad-shield RG-6 cable.

True, very true -- I've been seeing this subject come up a lot at in the install forums. For my run, I'll be using RG-6 quad over a run of less than 20ft (like, about 15') for the front-room install (glass or rigged mag mount). For the back a/c run, it'd be about 25' or so, given the curves/angles.

So after reading that long post, what type of scanner do you have, what kind of reception do you get with the stock antenna, and which if any other antennas have you tried?

Heheh...and you thought ~that~ post was long!
I have a BCD396T, I get 'ok' reception but need a bit more/clear singal (w/the RS 800) and the only other antenna I've tried is the stock duckie, but that didn't last long.


To all, here is the system I'm listening to mainly:
http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=844

http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?action=siteInfo&siteId=12801

 

[jmtyra]

Also -- looking at these cable types included with the NMO mounts, it looks like cheaper coax.

Shouldn't this be at least RG6 instead of RG58A/U?

http://www.theantennafarm.com/catal...e=product_info&cPath=264_267&products_id=1169
http://www.theantennafarm.com/catal...e=product_info&cPath=264_267&products_id=1170


EDIT:
Thinking this mount (http://www.scannermaster.com/NMO_Trunk_Lip_Mount_p/01-540829.htm) (Still not RG6 though!!!!)
With this antenna that has 5db!!!! (http://www.scannermaster.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=20-540972)

However, it says 806-866 MHz and some of the trunk channels hit the 868 range...
So, does the antenna get 0db gain outside of the 806-866 MHz range, or is it deaf outside of it's stated "range"?

 

[n5usr]

You aren't going to find a standard mount with RG-6, as that is 75 ohm coax and radio systems have standardized on 50 ohms for coax / antennas. It just happens that RG-6 (and 75 ohm coax, in general) has less loss for a given thickness than equivalent 50 ohm coax, and the impedance bump caused by using it isn't *that* significant, especially for a receive-only application.

RG-58 isn't too terrible for use in short runs, such as in a mobile mount. Even at 868MHz it will have 1.6dB loss for 10 feet, which is still workable. And it is sometimes more suitable for mobile installs, where you may have to turn tight corners. Many better coax cables use a foam dielectric, and sharp turns can cause the center conductor to push through the foam over time and cause the cable to go bad. But it is possible to buy mounts without coax, and attach your own...

For a leased vehicle, I think I would go with a trunk-lip mount. While mag-mounts *can* be okay, most scratching over time occurs because some grit gets under the mount and slight vibrations while moving work it in. Also, of course, if it happens to fall over and bang along the vehicle while in motion...!

Even the antennas I have that go stone deaf very far outside their design range can handle receiving 2-3 MHz outside - that isn't too bad. But that range they give may just be where you can adjust the antenna without breaking out the bolt cutters to trim the whip or something, too... I haven't had any 5/8 wave antennas that couldn't handle out of band coverage fairly well, but then I have also never seen a 5/8 wave that had a second coil in the middle so I can't say for sure what they have going on there...

 

[1289A]

window pane antena

In regards to your apartment. Are you able to temporarily attach anything to your window sil. There is a 10ft whip that is made to attach to a window sil. It is easily attached and taken down when not in use if need be. Look in MFG magazine. Also a club member of mine who had the same problem asked the management to allow an antenna and cable to be placed on the roof of the building. At frist they refused, then he advised them that in case of an emergency they would have contact to help thru his radio management relented.

Good Luck!
1289A

 

[Gooser]

I hang ducks in my window off the curtain rod. Works well. Got a RH77CA, Max Systems 800 (Sputnik), and a RS800 with short runs of RG-6.

 

[N1BHH]

I have had no problems with my mag mounts at high speed at all. Some people report the NMO-2/70 whistles above 50 MPH. It does, but mine is far enough back from the nose of my '93 Caravan that the wind vectors right over it. The NMO-150/450/800 doesn't move. Those will soon be permanently mounted. The Larsen and many other mag mounts come with clear polypropylene tape that keeps it from scratching any surfaces.

 

[mjthomas59]

The trunk-lip mount is going to be more secure(i've taken my antennas through the carwash many times without any issues) and you won't have any issues with messing up the paint. I'm not sure why some people have a preference on using mag-mounts, but it only takes about 30 seconds to remove the trunk-lip mount with an allen wrench so ease of removal isn't all that big of deal. You will have a tougher time fishing out the coax from your car than you will with removing the trunk-lip or mag mount.

That 5DB gain antenna is definetely the way i would go for your purpose. If anything needs to be done with the antenna, it would be to shorten it a little(maybe an inch or 2 max) to be "tuned" for 868 frequency you mentioned. However, with that little of a difference i wouldn't worry about it. It will still receive just fine even being 10mhz off, let alone 2.

I haven't done any research but it sounds like a discone might fit your needs as they seem to create their own groundplane by having the horizontal radials as well as vertical. I can't say that i've seen one made for 800mhz but i've never really looked either. I have the cheap RS Discone antenna which does ok for 800mhz but it isn't really designed for that range.

If you can somewhat bring it in with the RS800 then there is a good chance you can get improvement by changing your antenna. And although you aren't running anything much beyond 20ft i would still recommend higher quality cable than RG-58.

Here is the antenna you really need right here: http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/scanants/0603.html

Probably pick up any TRS in your state with that badboy. And surely your landlord wouldn't mind Just tell him you work for DHS!