TV Broadcast from Analog to Digital question

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Analogrules

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I know that at the beginning of next year all television broadcast stations are going to be switiching over to digital-only broadcasts. We don't have cable, so we went out and recently purchased a new digital flat-screen television (we needed a new one anyway for other reasons). After hooking it up to the bunny ears, it seemed to be working just fine on analog. HOwever, after switching the television mode to "digital", it stated on the screen that it cannot locate a signal. Does this mean that even WITH the new digital television, I'm still not going to be able to view television without cable or buying a digital conversion box?? Or, am I doing something wrong? I know that almost all of the NYC broadcast television stations are already using digital, so shouldn't I be getting something? Any friendly feedback is appreciated. Thanks.
 

Analogrules

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Thanks, I'll have to check to see if there's a separate input jack for digital television in the back of the television when I get home.
 

KR4BD

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All of the new TVs are handling digital in a different manner. I have 3 digital sets and they all program differently and operate somewhat differently, especially when toggling between digital and analog signals.

I am able to pick up a lot of digital signals over-the-air here in Lexington, KY, but I have found that the antenna often has to be aimed directly at some stations to pick them up. With digital, you either have a great signal or you don't. There are no snowy pictures, ghosts, etc, with digital. The closest thing to a weak signal happens when the picture starts freezing or breaking up into small boxes. That means you don't have enough signal to lock in a good picture. I have found that INDOOR antennas are almost useless for picking up digital signals here in Lexington where I live. The closest digital transmitters are about 10 miles from me and the "rabbit ears" don't cut it, but my outdoor antenna at 55 feet does a great job.

Other possibilities causing your problem:

Many stations are temporarily operating on lower power with their digital transmissions and often are using temporary transmitting antennas. Once over-the-air analog TV goes away (next February), I expect many stations will replace their analog antennas (which are usually the highest thing on their towers) by placing the digital antenna at maximum height (and power). Many of the stations around here initially put on very low power digital signals a few years ago just to "get something on the air" for the cable systems to pick up. This usually meant their antennas were side-mounted on towers at lower heights than the existing analog antennas.

How far away are the digital stations from you?

Once you get an antenna system that works, you will love digital and HD TV!
 
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rcvmo

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Just think of it as a High powered data transmitter from the TV station on a new set of frequencies and your HDTV is basically a hi-resolution computer monitor connected to a modem and an antenna.
That's it.
I've been playing with antennas and the new system for a couple years now. My in house system, while all still CRT style, take the line output from the Digital receiver and connect to a channel 3 modulator and then on throughout the house and garage via RG-6. The Infrared receivers for the remote control were brought out of the case and placed at central areas where the TV sets are. One remote for the entire house and garage.
Works for me, I like it as well. Next on the menu is converting the TV in the van to digital. Not all really hard to do.
rcvmo
 

gmclam

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ATSC broadcasts

N2ZGE said:
I know that at the beginning of next year all television broadcast stations are going to be switiching over to digital-only broadcasts.
Stations are already broadcasting in digital. What will actually be changing is that FULL POWER NTSC stations must stop broadcasting after 2/17/09.

After hooking it up to the bunny ears, it seemed to be working just fine on analog.
So many thoughts go through my mind here. First of all, all bunny ears are not created equal. I'll guess that the analog stations you've been watching are broadcast on channels 2, 4, 7, 11 - these are VHF channels. Even though the digital equivalent of channel 2 is called 2.1, it is most likely on a UHF channel. You'll need the correct type of antenna for the stations you want to receive.

HOwever, after switching the television mode to "digital", it stated on the screen that it cannot locate a signal. Does this mean that even WITH the new digital television, I'm still not going to be able to view television without cable or buying a digital conversion box??
It is possible. But you need to even the playing field first by making sure you have the correct antenna, pointed in the correct direction, connected correctly, etc. Also, the digital broadcast you are trying to pick up may not be at full power, full antenna height (of the broadcaster) or emitting a full pattern yet. If you're receiving from New York City, keep in mind that the broadcasts came from the WTC until 2/11/01. Now they don't. And they are just not able to have the same coverage area - yet.

Or, am I doing something wrong? I know that almost all of the NYC broadcast television stations are already using digital, so shouldn't I be getting something? Any friendly feedback is appreciated. Thanks.
When digital works, great. When it doesn't, you might see no indication that it is there. Try later in the day after the sun has gone down and see if you get anything.
 

gmclam

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New York City Television

I did a little research regarding New York City Television. Each station has 3 channels; the one they are on NOW (NTSC analog), the one they are on NOW (ATSC digital), and where they will be broadcasting digitally after analog is shut down.

ANALOG CURRENT FINAL
- 02 - - 56 -- - 37 -
- 04 - - 28 -- - 28 -
- 05 - - 44 -- - 44 -
- 07 - - 45 -- - 07 -
- 11 - - 33 -- - 11 -
- 25 - - 24 -- - 24 -
- 31 - - 30 -- - 31 -
 

kb2vxa

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Let's stop dancing all around the problem and get to the heart of the matter, those darn bunny ears! They never were any good with analog reception due to multipath reflections causing ghosting and their susceptibility to local noise and interference. The slightest disruption to a DTV signal and you get the dreaded blue screen of death, digital is an all or nothing proposition.

We exported the far superior COFDM system to Europe to recover R&D losses when we got stuck with crappy 8VSB thanks to corporate/government hanky panky but it's just my gripe about the aftermath of the Baltimore Experiment that's still a sore spot in broadcast engineering circles.

The bottom line here is you need a decent rooftop antenna pointed at Empire, from Union NJ you're right in the primary service area and your altitude should help considerably. You're not at the top of the hill on Stanley Terrace looking at the Manhattan skyline like I was but you should do OK.

Save the bunny ears for an Easter costume or whip some eggs with them, that's all they're good for. Oh, if you want them cooked you'll find the WJDM transmitter right next to the water tower, that is if the old Gates they dragged over from Linden didn't blow up and catch the weeds on fire again. Failing that you'll find WNJR right across from Tuscan on Union Avenue. (;->)
 

JHVH-1

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I have a HD tuner for my laptop and it came with a collapsible antenna. I can pick up all the local channels fine with the antenna indoors. Union shouldn't be that much different I would think. Probably just have to check the back to see if there is more than one antenna hookup like mentioned and then look into getting a different antenna then.

I think I get something like 23 stations, that includes the regular stuff, PBS, the secondary channels the stations have where they show weather and news 24/7.
 

key2_altfire

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I see a lot of valid points here, so I can only give you an anecdote. In my office we have an ATSC product that's still in the design phase. During my lunch breaks and such I've been playing with our "tester" ATSC/DTV TVs and I can tell you with certainty that the antenna selection makes a HUGE difference.

Of course, antenna selection might be a moot point in your area, because I work in signal-rich Los Angeles! But, in the basement of my building I can still receive ATSC signals using an "A/V MAX UHF DIGITAL" antenna. It's a small-ish antenna, but really works great on ATSC compared to just about anything else I've tried in terms of cheap indoor antennas.

The antenna that worked second best is a random wire loop...

NONE of the other store-bought antennas were worth a hoot, but we're talking about the stuff you can get from Sprawl Mart and Target.
 

antennaguy

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More Sophisticated Antennas Required

gmclam said:
"all bunny ears are not created equal. making sure you have the correct antenna"

As spending tightens in these uncertain economic times, discretionary purchasing has shifted away from other key market categories, to consumer electronics and particularly to digital TV and HD. High Definition Televisions bumped digital cameras out of the top spot for the most desired CE product for 2007. Several dynamics are affecting millions of households now relying on analog signals for reception of their broadcast TV signals, with antennas older than 2 years. They need to upgrade to the new antenna technology, along with cable and satellite customers looking for alternatives. This has resulted in tremendous sales increases of OTA antennas for Antennas Direct. Although cable and satellite program providers will continue to serve the great majority of homes as the primary signal source, missing HD local reception, higher costs, billing add-ons, service outages, contact difficulties, in-home service waits and no shows have left many subscribers looking to OTA antennas as alternatives and backup.

Richard Schneider, President of Antennas Direct said “Our antenna sales for the first two months of 2008 are up 125% over this time last year, a year that in itself that was up 60% over 2006. The simple fact is that not all antennas are equal, some are better and some are the best for particular reception situations. This shift in consumer spending could not have come at a better time for us, because of the tremendous improvements in our Off-Air antenna technology and design that have taken place in the last few years, allowing us to offer the best OTA antennas for the HD revolution.”

According to an article in Ad Age “As Giant Retailers Reel, Marketers Gird for Worst”, as to Consumer Electronics, the news appears very positive. “Consumers seem to have designated technology as a new necessity, along with food, gasoline and home-heating oil" said the Consumer Electronics Association’s group economist, Shawn DuBravac. Ad Age continued “Forecasts for 2008 from the CEA and other CE researchers such as iSuppli bear that out, with predictions of overall electronics growth.” "Last year, when oil prices were going through the roof, we saw that people said, 'Since we're not traveling, let's spend some of that money on buying a flat-panel TV,'" said iSuppli analyst Riddih Patel.

There are more than 40 million households currently receiving OTA analog signals in the U.S., according to new proprietary research just released by Centris (www.centris.com), a leading market research firm. They said this number represents a “large opportunity for…manufacturers and distributors of "smart" television antennas…requir(ing) …more sophisticated (OTA) antennas.” Centris surveys reveal that 75% or more of over-the-air households have only set-top antennas. “The effect will have extensive ramifications, not only among consumers, but also electronics retailers and manufacturers who can expect an influx of costly returns when it is realized that the converter boxes and new digital TV's don't work," says Barry Goodstadt, Senior Vice President of Centris.

To viewers already receiving a cable or satellite network, the benefits of Off-Air antennas are compelling. There is only so much room on cable or satellite bandwidth in which to squeeze signal, so data is compressed to fit, resulting in a somewhat "soft" picture. An OTA signal is the gold standard in digital reception because it's almost completely uncompressed and also FREE. Local digital TV broadcasts are everywhere. But bandwidth limitations force cable and satellite providers to not carry all local channels in many areas, or may not offer all of them in high definition. Contract disagreements between local cable operators and local broadcasters mean that major networks may not be available in several areas. DISH Network® offers local HD coverage to about 47 percent of U.S. markets, while DIRECTV® reaches about 76 percent, but for an additional monthly fee.

“What about those other millions of viewers who want to see their favorite local shows and in HD” asks Schneider? “The answer is to add an OTA antenna to other signal reception sources”. This not only gives a viewer the ability to receive all their local stations, but, with the right digital antenna and location, some viewers may even be able to receive out-of-town channels, carrying blacked out sports programs or network broadcasts not available in their home town. As an added benefit, an OTA antenna provides back-up reception options for local cable or satellite signal loss due to equipment failure or rain, snow and ice fade and to smaller TVs and second sets in homes not wired for whole-house signal distribution.
 

gmclam

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Know what channel you are actually receiving!!!

kb2vxa said:
Let's stop dancing all around the problem and get to the heart of the matter, those darn bunny ears! They never were any good with analog reception due to multipath reflections causing ghosting and their susceptibility to local noise and interference. The slightest disruption to a DTV signal and you get the dreaded blue screen of death, digital is an all or nothing proposition.
A good ATSC receiver can handle signals which have significant "ghosts" or multipath. Of course, if you have a (digital) picture at all, it will never have ghosts. Many people around the country will be able to receive "perfect pictures" from bunny ears. However, they may not understand that they are trying to receive a UHF channel, not a VHF channel.

Most people here at RR know, the lower the frequency, the bigger the antenna. TV channels 2-6 use the largest part of existing TV antennas. Fortunately, there will be very few ATSC broadcasters on those frequencies. BUT, "bunny ears" are really only designed for VHF, which leaves channels 7-13.

I suspect that the OP wants to receive channel 2.1 or perhaps 4.1 with his bunny ears. The problem - IT IS THE WRONG TYPE OF ANTENNA!!! As I pointed out, those channels are physically currently broadcast on UHF channels 56 & 28 respectively. The "better" antenna for those channels is a "loop" antenna, not "ears". And as someone else mentioned, a coat hanger can work better than something you might pay $$$ for at a retailer. Of course, an "outdoor" type antenna, even if mounted in the attic, is going to do a better job than the loop or the ears.
 
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Analogrules

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Wow, I never expected so much excellent feedback from everyone. Well, when I got home from work I actually figured out what the "main problem" was. Would you believe that because the DVD player was powered ON and connected to the same extension cord as the television, it actually caused enough intereference to cause the TV not to recognize any of the digital channels during the scan/search. Now, that I powered off the DVD player, I am now seeing digital television without cable for the first time. You're right, it's a wonderful thing. Crystal clear picture and everything. My only complain is that occasionally the picture would jump or freeze due to a temporary signal loss. Of course, I'm sure the amplified bunny ear indoor antenna isn't the best for the job. Unfortunately, since I'm in an apartment complex, we're not allowed to have any external antennas or satellites according to the lease. I'm hoping that you're right and that NYC will boost the power of their digital antennas just a little bit more, so that the picture doesn't freeze as often as it does. I just refuse to pay $60+ per month for cable considering I live so close to NYC. It's just a waste of money in my opinion.
 

kb2vxa

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Hi again Ben and the gang,

"I'm sure the amplified bunny ear indoor antenna isn't the best for the job."

I used to sell those infernal things so I'm doubly sure. Please take my word for everything I've said, I used to work for Roselle Radio and later for H&H in Rahway so I just might have a bit of practical experience on the roof and on the bench.

"Unfortunately, since I'm in an apartment complex, we're not allowed to have any external antennas or satellites according to the lease."

Screw the lease, it's preempted by federal law. If you have an area such as a balcony where you have exclusive access as part of your rental unit you can put an antenna or sat dish there as long as none of it protrudes over the edge. I don't have the statute handy but somebody posted it around here somewhere a while back. If not here I'm sure I saw it on www.qrz.com and undoubtedly you'll find it at www.fcc.gov somewhere, let your mouse do the looking and you'll find it.

Now here's what I suggest, a 4 bay UHF bow tie antenna. It's flat and fairly small so it easily fits on a balcony, near a window or pretty much anywhere indoors. You can easily hide it behind a piece of furniture, out of sight, out of mind. It's got plenty of gain and aiming isn't too critical as long as the active elements can see the signal. Just don't put the side or rear to NY and you should be OK.
 

gmclam

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The best kept secret in America

KB2VXA is correct, your lease or HOA can NOT prohibit you from erecting an antenna in a space which is yours; unless it is a safety hazard. Also, amplified indoor antennas are junk. I've never seen one that was worth its weight.

Your best bet is to get the best ANTENNA you can. I don't mean amplified. We're talking mass; the more metal you have in the air, the better chance you have acquiring the signal you want. Putting an amplifier after an insufficient antenna seems to amplify everything (noise) but what you want.

I wonder if the DVD player in question is one of the cheapo units, or perhaps manufactured in China or both. Units which have passed FCC testing should NOT do that. What else do you have nearby causing interference? Cordless phone? Wireless Internet router? Other wireless gadget?

Also, connect your antenna DIRECTLY to your tuner. Don't go through a VCR or DVD player or whathaveyou. Connect those other video devices via LINE IN or equivalent on your TV display.

Digital over-the-air television has been described as the best kept secret in America. There is NO place where you will get a better picture unless you are at the broadcaster's studio - NOWHERE. The cable and DSS guys mostly send you a signal they get off the air. If their receiver goes down, so does yours. And they typically further compress the signal because the do not have the bandwidth for all of the channels they are selling you. As they try and move more things to HD, they have even less space. What do you think is going to get the axe first? - a "premium channel" they make lots of money on, or the local stuff which is actually competing against them?
 

Bayonne-Bob

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Well glad you found the problem
Now how many channels are you getting in HD

myself being in the ny-nj metro area
getting HD channels over the air is super easy
but then i am a stones throw from the transmitters and use antennas on the roof

for "most people" the answer on how to get the signals good is.....
get the best antenna you can
unlike analog channels that are on vhf the newer HD is on UHF frequency's

outdoor antennas generally will do far better then indoor
if you are more then 50 mils from the transmitters you are trying to receive
then you will likely need a good outdoor UHF (meaning with a 10 ft boom) and perhaps even add to that an antenna mounted pre-amp (not a garbage one)

most people will not require huge outdoor antennas and even fewer will need a proper preamp on the antenna

Try to keep it as simple as possible

in most metro/city areas there is no reason to not today get less then 30 digital HD channels and quite likely as many as 60 channels

if you need run antenna to roof
another thing to consider is type of coax used
if more then a 125 ft run then instead of RG6 perhaps invest in RG11 coax
TRY not to use the garbage RG58 coax
 

paracom

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Retracted Bunny Ears

For the last year in Dayton, I've been adjusting the ears(extended) per HD channel, on 3 tv's. I finally reduced all three to their minimum, about 10" and no more problems.
For fun, I cut a 8" piece of a coat hanger, stuck in the ant input, same great reception on all HD channels. But I'm less than 20 miles away.
My AOR discone is the next test for HD, I want the Cinci channels too.
 

gmclam

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paracom you probably need a loop antenna not rabbit ears as most ATSC broadcasts are currently on UHF. A discone is a LOUSY antenna for TV as it has NO gain.
 

BillW1

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N2ZGE said:
I know that at the beginning of next year all television broadcast stations are going to be switiching over to digital-only broadcasts. We don't have cable, so we went out and recently purchased a new digital flat-screen television (we needed a new one anyway for other reasons). After hooking it up to the bunny ears, it seemed to be working just fine on analog. HOwever, after switching the television mode to "digital", it stated on the screen that it cannot locate a signal. Does this mean that even WITH the new digital television, I'm still not going to be able to view television without cable or buying a digital conversion box?? Or, am I doing something wrong? I know that almost all of the NYC broadcast television stations are already using digital, so shouldn't I be getting something? Any friendly feedback is appreciated. Thanks.

Did you do a scan or channel search first?

Bill
 
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