Tornado Siren Activation Criteria

[Confuzzled]

Originally Posted by kf4lhp

How about this one for siren criteria... we have sirens here covering about half of the county. They were installed as part of the warning system for the Sequoyah Nuclear Plant and will be used -only- for an emergency involving the plant. After the tornadic outbreak in April, everyone kept saying (again) that the sirens should be used for severe weather as well, but when they're commonly referred to by residents as the "sequoyah sirens," wouldn't that likely cause confusion, if not outright panic? TVA and local EMA keeps saying no to the idea, which IMO they should.

Our first sirens were put in after a leak at a chemical plant that resulted in evacuations and road closures.

The system was later expanded with more sirens and a dual purpose and dual tones, Warble for chemical, Wail for weather. I have no idea if the public knows the difference.

[rdale]

Originally Posted by dyersburg911

Update - my contacts inform me that the weather radio industry is ready, they are waiting on the weather service to develope the ability to provide the info as a part of the broadcast

I brought that up at the International Assn of Emergency Managers conference last week with the director of the NWS and he thought it was a good idea, and hopefully it's something they can start testing in the next few years.

[W2IBC]

only time I hear sirens here is with a tornado warning, or the Severe storm warning with Tornado watch

[rdale]

Thanks for the info. Sounding them during a severe thunderstorm warning is a HORRIBLE idea. Do you have contact info for your EMA? I'll get them the correct usage guidelines.

[Confuzzled]

Our guy sets his own guidelines. Marches to his own drum too.


I've been in Dispatch during TOR Watches monitoring conditions. Weather picks up, SVR (Warning) issued, dude says "Hit the sirens". I scratch my head, remind him it's an SVR, not a TOR. He doesn't care, "Hit the sirens"



Oooookey Fine.

[rdale]

Go ahead and pass the guidelines along... It may not help - but it can't hurt!

[OCO]

Originally Posted by rdale

Go ahead and pass the guidelines along... It may not help - but it can't hurt!

You might also enclose a copy of Aesop's fable " The Boy Who Cried Wolf" with the guidelines..

[newsphotog]

Originally Posted by old_cjdc_ops

you might also enclose a copy of aesop's fable " the boy who cried wolf" with the guidelines..

+1...

[Confuzzled]

Originally Posted by rdale

Go ahead and pass the guidelines along... It may not help - but it can't hurt!

He doesn't follow NIMS so there's no reason to think he'd pay attention to this. In fact, he'd probably try to tell NWS why the whole thing is wrong.

[Confuzzled]

Did it again this morning.

We were not under a TOR Warning. Adjacent county was, but not us. He told them to activate the sirens anyways.

Then he did it again later for a different SVR when the cell was already nearly out of the county into the next.

[jaymatt1978]

Originally Posted by Confuzzled

Did it again this morning.

We were not under a TOR Warning. Adjacent county was, but not us. He told them to activate the sirens anyways.

Then he did it again later for a different SVR when the cell was already nearly out of the county into the next.

Maybe this is a bit flippant, but what would happen if you just ignored the directive to activate the siren for the watch and just pull it for the warnings??

[datainmotion]

Originally Posted by Confuzzled

Did it again this morning.

We were not under a TOR Warning. Adjacent county was, but not us. He told them to activate the sirens anyways.

Then he did it again later for a different SVR when the cell was already nearly out of the county into the next.

You've had some posts in this thread that bring up good points about this - this has become a liability issue for many agencies.

Despite what the "guideline writers" think should happen, many of those in charge of the siren activation simply don't want to get caught in the proverbial "pants around their ankles" situation and will err on the side of caution. I agree that activation for a storm moving out of the area doesn't seem to make sense, but does the person deciding to activate have all that info at hand? Who is that person? An EMA Mgr? A FD or PD Chief? A Watch Commander? A Dispatch Supervisor? Have they been criticized by their superiors or the public in the past for not activating when it was thought they should have? Do they even know the standards?

[rdale]

If they weren't under a tornado warning, then they had no reason to sound them. There is no confusion there, nor is there any liability for not sounding them. This sounds more like someone who just likes to press the button, even to the point of not caring about the public he is paid to protect.

[Confuzzled]

He's an EM director with a God complex. He marches to his own drummer. It isn't that he's not familiar with the criteria, it's more that he doesn't care. And don't even think about questioning or correcting him.

I know what he was thinking this morning. There was a cell that had produced TOR warnings across several counties tracking directly for us. It looked great on radar, well defined rotation and a good hook. I'm sure he was anticipating a TOR for us at any moment.

BUT.....

I've watched a lot of similar storms track the same way and suddenly fall apart about 10-15 miles before they get to us. I guess there's some kind of geologic feature that breaks them up, but I don't know what it is. It happens as often as not that they will all but die, or split and go around us. Strange as heck, but quite common.

I was watching the progress and expecting a TOR to be issued for us. But none had been issued when he came on the air and instructed the dispatcher to trip the sirens.

Sure enough, the cell rapidly decreased in intensity and no TOR was issued. They did issue an SVR and we got high winds and plenty of rain, but we had no damage at all. Not even any trees down blocking major roadways.

Not quite an hour later as another cell passed and was intensifying, a TOR was issued for the next county beyond us, but again, not for us. Nevertheless, he ordered the sirens sounded again. No damage at all for us out of that one either.

This is the kind of stuff that makes people disregard warning systems. Then you hear reporters asking people if they heard the sirens and they say, 'yeah, but they go off all the time....'

[datainmotion]

Originally Posted by rdale

If they weren't under a tornado warning, then they had no reason to sound them. There is no confusion there, nor is there any liability for not sounding them. This sounds more like someone who just likes to press the button, even to the point of not caring about the public he is paid to protect.

Rob, in the bigger picture (outside of this particular case), I would respectfully disagree.
I think this may be where the disconnect happens between those trying to establish a useable standard, such as yourself, and a public who increasingly want to be warned of every little threat. This is a society that has to be warned not to eat the silicate packet in a new shoebox for cripes sake.

People want their hand held, so to speak, to tell them "you should probably go inside before the lightning hits your neighbors house and the golfball sized hail starts denting the car roofs".

The other consideration is not every region or state views Tornado Sirens the same. Since the late 90s, the term "Outdoor Warning" has been replacing "Tornado Siren" especially in communities new to the sirens. And it's not just a different phrase, but a different mindset about the siren's "mission".

I don't disagree with your assertions, but yet suggest that considerations be made that not every community with a siren has had one since the 50s, sits directly in Tornado alley and not every resident has lived in a tornado-prone zone their entire life.

[rdale]

Originally Posted by datainmotion

Rob, in the bigger picture (outside of this particular case), I would respectfully disagree.

I see where you are coming from - but research shows that the public ignores sirens because they are sounded too often. The NWS assessment of Joplin last year made that abundantly clear, and matches up with other studies performed for as long as people have been analyzing. The public gets so used to them (testing too often like Joplin did, and sounding for non-threatening events like we're discussing here) that they are simply set to tune them out.

public who increasingly want to be warned of every little threat. This is a society that has to be warned not to eat the silicate packet in a new shoebox for cripes sake.

I agree - they do want to be warned. They don't consider sirens as ample warning because of the problems.

The other consideration is not every region or state views Tornado Sirens the same. Since the late 90s, the term "Outdoor Warning" has been replacing "Tornado Siren" especially in communities new to the sirens. And it's not just a different phrase, but a different mindset about the siren's "mission".

That is the term and I know many agencies have that in their SOP, but I would have to imagine if you started sounding the sirens because of a hazmat situation that required immediate evacuation, it would not accomplish that goal.

connsiderations be made that not every community with a siren has had one since the 50s, sits directly in Tornado alley and not every resident has lived in a tornado-prone zone their entire life.

Which is exactly why we're trying to set a national standard... So we get away from a community that sounds them for the fire department, noon/5pm work whistle (that amazes me), the Saturday little league game start time and tornadoes to just tornadoes and extreme winds (i.e. life threatening weather hazards.)

[datainmotion]

Good - we're on the same page!
BTW - What about imminent flash flooding (maybe just an oversight in your list)?

I've had the unique experience of growing up in the Midwest (suburban Chicago) and the mindset we had if we actually had the sirens sound and later designing and bulding OWS systems here in Colorado. Imagine the difference!

Here's some examples of the CO mindset with sirens:

• many rural communities in Eastern CO have been sounding the "noon whistle" since the 50s on their sirens. We actually had to install a timer on a newer siren we installed to accomplish this.
• In one community, which shall rename nameless (*cough BOULDER cough*), just weeks after we installed the system, a tornado appeared over a reservoir just outside of town, the sirens were activated and hundreds of residents came outside to see what all the noise was.
• In another community, the 911 Center received complaints after a monthly Spring test stating "You shouldn't be sounding the sirens at all while that Air Force bomber is on the loose." Craig D. Button - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
• Numerous agencies have received complaints that "the sirens should have been sounded" when in fact there was no established "threshold crossed" to warrant their activation

I think these examples are just a microcosm of the confusion over what the "mission" of the siren should be.
Also, it's important to note, that many communities have the use of a PA function in modern electronic sirens, that if configured correctly, would allow any designated person (including EM/FD/PD personnel) to make an announcement over the sirens from even a handheld radio (if in range of the sites or a repeater), if necessary. Many manufacturers even have the option to include pre-recorded PA messages in multiple languages.

Mike

[Confuzzled]

Originally Posted by rdale

but I would have to imagine if you started sounding the sirens because of a hazmat situation that required immediate evacuation, it would not accomplish that goal.

Interestingly, that is the precise reason ours were first installed - risk from nearby hazardous materials manufacturing facilities. Weather is a secondary function.

[Confuzzled]

Originally Posted by datainmotion

BTW - What about imminent flash flooding (maybe just an oversight in your list)?.

Flooding is not generally a sudden event affecting a widespread area. Even flash flooding from a heavy rainstorm may only affect small areas unless you live in a canyon setting.

A dam or reservoir breech releasing millions of gallons would be reason to sound sirens though.

[datainmotion]

Originally Posted by Confuzzled

Flooding is not generally a sudden event affecting a widespread area. Even flash flooding from a heavy rainstorm may only affect small areas unless you live in a canyon setting.

A dam or reservoir breech releasing millions of gallons would be reason to sound sirens though.

There are a number of cities on the Front Range here that literally sit at the mouth of a canyon - Colorado Springs, Boulder and Golden are the most populated and have all experienced dangerous flash flooding at various times. I'm certain there are even more in the same situation in California. This is one of my other points - standards would need to accommodate those situations as well.