KOB647; KOK263 --Early Portland Fire communications.

Are there any members around that listened to Portland Fire back in the 1970's or earlier? When I was a kid growing up in NE Portland I listened to Portland Fire (KOB647) and Fire District 10 (KOK263) all the time. Back in those days Portland Fire was dispatched from the Fire Alarm Telegraph building on NE 21st near I-84. For Portland, stations were tapped out by landline unless it was a full box alarm. They would either call out a "Phantom box" or a "Straight box" alarm. Phantom boxes were when calls were phoned in while Straight boxes were when someone pulled a Gamewell Fire alarm box. When box alarms were transmitted you could hear the Gamewell punch register in the background, and if it were a straight box you would here a bell punching out the box number in the background. All the radio communications were by VHF simplex. They had a voting system with remote receivers/transmitters and it seemed to work pretty darn well - plus it was a lot of fun to listen to. Anyone else out there have memories to share about good ol' KOB?

Up until a few years ago, the telecommunicators at BOEC would still announce box alarms with the preamble, "This is KOB647 calling a report of a () fire at . . . time out . . ."

Up until about 10 years ago or so, you could still hear the DTMF encoder on the old VHF dispatch frequency (154.430); that was a great way to determine if something was interesting before you heard the voice. The changeover to the fiber-optics to the stations, and the new Zetron station alerting equipment put an end to that, though. [Side note: I remember having returned to Portland from an opportunity in Phoenix and listening to the conventional fire dispatch frequency the day of the big bowling-alley fire on Sandy. I thought those tones would never quit.]

KOB647 is still a valid license - for both the statewide mutual aid VHF frequency (where you can hear the daily or weekly check-in with the OSFM) and the old dispatch frequency (154.4300) - which makes me wonder what they are using it for these days.

Occasionally, but rarely, you will hear a crewmember ask BOEC for a still alarm - I'm sure many (newer) folks don't know the difference between a still alarm and a box alarm - but even that is getting rare.

thanks for bringing back the memories!

Wow! The minute I started reading your post, those call letters came flying back to me way faster than me remembering where I left my keys this evening!

I lived in District 10 growing up...which was dispatched out of a building behind the old Station 45 on SE 174th between Stark and Division....my dad would take me down to sit with the dispatchers...mostly retired and/or disabled firefighters, who were incredible gentlemen! They would let me push the buttons on the console that would tap out an alarm and explain everything they were doing! It was a blast and something I remember to this day!

Now that I'm a firefighter, I appreciate the work of the dispatchers more than ever...and it started back in the good old "KOB647 (or KOK263) calling phantom box 2320..." days!

While we are talking nostalgia, here's a couple other things that may stimulate some fun posts....

1. Throughout the 60's and into the 80's, who remembers the three primary ambulance companies serving the Multnomah County/Portland area?....Answer: Buck ("the professional folks"), AA ("the guys with the cool caddies" that served North and NE Portland and ran most of the trauma calls, shootings, etc. during the turbulent times) and Care ("the kind of wild guys with the brown and white classic vans with mag wheels and a carefree spirit") ...that was in the day where ambulance companies had assigned "zones" but it wasn't unheard of for ambulances from all three companies to jump each others calls and end up seeing who could get to a scene first! Those were the days!

2. Was anyone listening to their scanners the evening of December 28, 1978 when United Airlines flight 173 crashed at E 157th and Burnside? I remember it vividly...had just sat down to dinner and the phone rang...my aunt who lived in Happy Valley yelled "a HUGE airplane just went over our house about "100 ft" high....my God! I think it must have crashed!" ....which at exactly that moment, there was a huge flash in the sky to my West (we lived about NE 175th and Glisan) and all the lights flickered out for a few seconds and then popped back on. I looked at my mom, dad, and brother and said "do you think?"...and flipped on our scanner to hear I believe a Battalion Chief screaming into the radio, "a plane, a LARGE plane, is down...send every ambulance in the city NOW!"

Thanks Joe and Mike for the great replies and additional memories...

I was not sure how the KOB647 license was still used. I may have to give the old 154.28 Mhz State Net a listen and see if I hear it used. I remember there used to be a daily broadcast by KBF-817 at 0800 every day with backyard burn information and all the fire districts would acknowledge that they had received the transmission. Does anyone know the schedule of these broadcasts if they still occur?

Here's another memory about KOB647... At 0815 every morning they used to do the "Morning Radio Check." They would do a roll call of all the first responding companies to make sure the radios were all functioning. On Wednesdays at 08:15 They did a more extensive check and included all the apparatus that wasn't tested on the other days, such as the three fire-boats, Manifold 1, Squad 1, etc. Since these were simplex operations, it was a great opportunity to see how your scanner and antenna were receiving.

Mike, It's interesting that you mention the Fire District 10 dispatch center... I was a Fire District 10 Explorer Scout in high school and got to spend a "shift" in that facility and got to tap out a call. That was great fun!

I too remember the United Air crash. We were at home when it happened and I remember listening in on the scanner that night as well. We were lucky because we still had power, but just one block away the neighborhood was completly without power (I lived on NE 76th at the time.)

Don't forget Tualatin Valley Ambulance on Multnomah Blvd. The green and yellow Cadillac and Dodge van.

joescanner said:

Occasionally, but rarely, you will hear a crewmember ask BOEC for a still alarm - I'm sure many (newer) folks don't know the difference between a still alarm and a box alarm - but even that is getting rare.

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Very rare. Stations call dispatch directly via telephone and are placed on the call without any voice on the radio, unless there is an ambulance requested and you'll only hear the ambulance assignment, the nature of the medical call (SK3, UK3, etc...), and the location of the station. If the fire company is driving to an address elsewhere, you'll only hear them "responding", then "arriving."

This was done to eliminate some radio traffic on the dispatch channel. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me since these transmissions only take a few seconds to complete.

KC7VH said:

I was not sure how the KOB647 license was still used.

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Tapouts are still simulcast on one of the VHF frequencies. Portland Fire does this to maintain the license, otherwise the FCC would have pulled the VHF frequencies associated with it.

The Vhf freq They simulcast on 154.430?

I haven't heard KOB647 on any of the old VHF frequencies for many years. I saw that 154.430 was still a licensed frequency and was wondering if it was just being held as a backup or something.

mh34444 said:

Tapouts are still simulcast on one of the VHF frequencies. Portland Fire does this to maintain the license, otherwise the FCC would have pulled the VHF frequencies associated with it.

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Not disagreeing with you... but, also recently, the MSEL bit is not active during tapout. It's been a long time. But you used to be able to identify a tapout (as opposed to routine traffic on the tapout talkgroup) because of the MSEL bit (tapouts would show up on 28951 as opposed to routine traffic/responses showing up on 28944). That hasn't happened in quite a while (over a year!), and I'm wondering if (with all of the other work that's been done at the Portland Comm Center) it was disabled, deactivated, whathaveyou... I haven't heard anything on the VHF freq in an eon (regardless).

joescanner said:

Not disagreeing with you... but, also recently, the MSEL bit is not active during tapout. It's been a long time. But you used to be able to identify a tapout (as opposed to routine traffic on the tapout talkgroup) because of the MSEL bit (tapouts would show up on 28951 as opposed to routine traffic/responses showing up on 28944). That hasn't happened in quite a while (over a year!), and I'm wondering if (with all of the other work that's been done at the Portland Comm Center) it was disabled, deactivated, whathaveyou... I haven't heard anything on the VHF freq in an eon (regardless).

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You are all correct. I took a look last night and sure enough, its not broadcasting, but I believe its supposed to be. If the current (turned off) state is correct, I'm assuming its because of the annoying VFH hissing sound the channel produces when passing through the 800mhz system, but only the dispatcher hears it.

As far as the MSEL, the only explanation I can think of is that the tapout talkgroup operates independent of other talkgroups now. In years past, structure fires would be simulcast on both tapout and the ops channel crews will be responding on, which may have driven the odd number talkgroup id (just like police talkgroups would display an odd number when they were "patched" between 3a-11am). But I could be wrong.

mh34444 said:

... (just like police talkgroups would display an odd number when they were "patched" between 3a-11am). But I could be wrong.

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The odd numbered talk groups are the normal TG with added Motorola Status Bits.

MOTOROLA STATUS BITS
28944 ID+0 Normal Talkgroup
28945 ID+1 All Talkgroup
28946 ID+2 Emergency
28947 ID+3 Talkgroup patch to another
28948 ID+4 Emergency Patch
28949 ID+5 Emergency multi-group
28950 ID+6 Not assigned
28951 ID+7 Multi-select (initiated by dispatcher)
28952 to 28959 same as above but with DES encryption.

Some scanners allow you to select whether or not the status bits are displayed. Others display the normal TG, and ignore any status bits..

DickH said:

The odd numbered talk groups are the normal TG with added Motorola Status Bits.

MOTOROLA STATUS BITS
28944 ID+0 Normal Talkgroup
28945 ID+1 All Talkgroup
28946 ID+2 Emergency
28947 ID+3 Talkgroup patch to another
28948 ID+4 Emergency Patch
28949 ID+5 Emergency multi-group
28950 ID+6 Not assigned
28951 ID+7 Multi-select (initiated by dispatcher)
28952 to 28959 same as above but with DES encryption.

Some scanners allow you to select whether or not the status bits are displayed. Others display the normal TG, and ignore any status bits..

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I might add, in the recent "old days" when the first trunking scanners came out, you needed to enter 28944, 28947 and 28951 to be sure of hearing all Portland fire dispatches. I never paid much attention as to when they used one or the other, but they changed now and then.

The VHF simulcast has been turned off because no good reason could be found for keeping it broadcasting. My guess is that it was originally put in place as a backup to the 800mhz system, but since no one carries VHF radios anymore and all adjoining counties are also on the 800mhz, it was just forgotten and no one thought to remove it. It was labeled Fire F7.

At one time this fire "F7" belonged to Fire District 10, KOK263, as their F1 - This was back in the 70's.
Back then the fire channels were as follows:
Portland Fire -KOB647
F1- 154.010
F2- 154.250
F3- 154.145
Multnomah County District 10 -KOK263
F1- 154.430
F2- 154.175
F3- 154.355

When Fire District 10 was consolidated with Portland Fire, 154.430, the old District 10 F1 became Portland Fire's tapout frequency.

Just in case anyone is interested in a little history!

sounds about right, I met a FF in the early 80's for Dist 10, they carried both a VHF and UHF radio when running EMS calls. I recall the simulcast lasted til around 94-95 Thurston County WA put repeater outputs on 010 and 175 shortly afterward as well as using 430 as the tone out

KC7VH said:

[size=-2]At one time this fire "F7" belonged to Fire District 10, KOK263, as their F1 - This was back in the 70's.
Back then the fire channels were as follows:
Portland Fire -KOB647
F1- 154.010
F2- 154.250
F3- 154.145
Multnomah County District 10 -KOK263
F1- 154.430
F2- 154.175
F3- 154.355

When Fire District 10 was consolidated with Portland Fire, 154.430, the old District 10 F1 became Portland Fire's tapout frequency.

Just in case anyone is interested in a little history![/size]

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I remember the first time I heard another district
responding as mutual aid on PFB's F-1.
Defunct Milwaukie Fire District #56, I think.
8 channel radios were high-tech stuff then.

Before that messages between PFB apparatus and apparatus from
other districts responding as mutual aid were relayed by phone between the dispatchers.

A private ambulance service or PPB able to talk to PFB via radio was still unheard of.

My I must be really old list:

1. I recall the day police and fire dispatchers stopped
using 12-hour time announcements and began using 24 hour time...

2. Just about all of Clackamas County fire districts were on 154.19.
Just one channel for tone-out, response and working.

3. Clackamas County Sheriff had just one channel 155.43.
Dispatched by a uniformed deputy.
He'd call out to a patrol deputy on the street and
have him to come in to cover the radio.

Memories...

mikepdx said:

Before that messages between PFB apparatus and apparatus from
other districts responding as mutual aid were relayed by phone between the dispatchers.

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And they are STILL doing it that way, at least between the 4 county's dispatch centers.
Wait until the earthquake hits and all the phone lines are out, then they will wish they had been using radio instead of scrambling around trying to figure out how to get mutual aid. Sheesh, talk about the dark ages!

DickH said:

And they are STILL doing it that way, at least between the 4 county's dispatch centers.
Wait until the earthquake hits and all the phone lines are out, then they will wish they had been using radio instead of scrambling around trying to figure out how to get mutual aid. Sheesh, talk about the dark ages!

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Not exactly. Telephone communication is only used to request mutual aid from neighboring counties at which point they are directed to respond on the talkgroup of the agency making the request. All PFB radios and BOEC radios have access to Clack, Wash and Clark counties Ops and dispatch channels as well, so in the event the phone lines went down there would be a backup in place for mutual aid.

Failure of certain systems have been tested in the past, both scheduled and unscheduled. CCOM has turned over dispatching to LOCOM for short periods of time (usually in the early morning hours) during scheduled events. WCCCA lost phone communication a few years ago and BOEC was the coordination point for fire/ems calls, essentially calling a TVF&R chief with the call details and they would contact their responders who would take it from there.

The only thing that hasn't happened yet is BOEC losing communication. The impact of sending a huge call load onto a call center that usually only deals with 1/5 of that volume would be crazy. WCCCA/CCOM/LOCOM/CLARK all have good people working for them, but forcing a workload usually handled by 25-30 people onto a center with 5-10 would stress the system quite a bit.

mh34444 said:

Not exactly. Telephone communication is only used to request mutual aid from neighboring counties at which point they are directed to respond on the talkgroup of the agency making the request. All PFB radios and BOEC radios have access to Clack, Wash and Clark counties Ops and dispatch channels as well, so in the event the phone lines went down there would be a backup in place for mutual aid.
.

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I am well aware of all that. The problem is when it happens it is such a rare occurrence that people do not automatically know what to do and it takes some time to figure it out.
In the Boston area, where I was involved with the mutual aid system, we use radio exclusively for mutual aid. There are two tests daily, morning and evening. All 34 agencies are called and if one does not reply, then they called by telephone. Twice a day is required because of the two daily 10 and 14-hour shifts. In addition to the daily tests, all movements of apparatus outside of the agency's normal first alarm area is reported to METROFIRE.
By frequent use of the system it is just second nature to pick up the METROFIRE mic and announce mutual aid alarms - no looking around for written instructions, no head scratching, etc.
http://www.massmetrofire.org