Advice on interfacing radios with phone system.

I'm a new user to RadioReference.Com, and I've noticed a LOT of sub-forums here, but can't seem to find a heading that really fits my needs. Some say 'Monitoring', and that leads me to believe that they're meant for the purpose of strictly monitoring a radio signal.

I'm seeking a forum that can help me and my company when it comes time to install a telephone type product, and this product integrates with a wide variety of military-grade radios (HF/VHF/UHF AM or FM). However, what used to be something that we would ask the Air Force to do, we are more often-than-not being faced with having to do the wiring integration ourselves.

I'm hoping to find a forum that would be able, AND WILLING, to help with pin-outs, setups (to include programming options to specify to the local radio shops if one is nearby), audio signal specifications (impedance, power, keying, etc.), and just general knowledge.

Some of the radios we've already integrated with are fairly old and archaic, but the military still uses them even though finding someone on base or nearby with actual knowledge of the radio is becoming scarce. Some are ground-to-ground, while most are ground-to-air. Some are backpack, some are desktop, and some are vehicle, but we always integrate with them inside a building (never vehicular). Sometimes we'll connect via a rear connector, and sometimes we'll use the front microphone / handset connector. Sometimes we'll do something so bizarre and out of the 'norms' that any tech after the fact have to call the person that performed the actual integration just to get an idea of what they're facing during their service call. (We rarely will integrate with any radio that encrypts, but it does happen from time-to-time.)

Our primary device that handles the radio integration is the Connect Systems Inc (CSI) Flex II (specially modified for our telephone system). This takes ONLY analog audio and PTT signalling. Sometimes the radio will be placed very far away, so we have to use a digitizing device to get the signals to the CSI via fiber optics, but we still re-convert that digital signal back to analog.

Often times we just need pin-outs, but sometimes we also need to know more specific information about the analog signals before we can engineer an integration solution. That's where I'm really hoping to find someone here that can help.

Such radios we've interfaced with include (but definitely not limited to):
URC200
PRC117
GRR-23/24 w/ GRT-21/22
Pacer Bounce
PRC68
XTL5000 (LMR)


Soooo, can anyone here point me in the correct direction?

Many thanks for answering this, and for providing such a great forum.
-Shooter

TX_Shooter said:

Soooo, can anyone here point me in the correct direction?

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You're in the forum to get the best response but the level of support you get is going to vary.

How come you don't have your own people to figure this out??

Forums Manager said:

How come you don't have your own people to figure this out??

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My "own people" consists of many, many, MANY years of combined expertise, but mostly only in the 'telephone world'. VERY few would have delved directly into the 'radio world'. I'm probably one of the few that have a background in commercial and professional radio (aviation, police, fire, etc.), to include component level repair, but that was years ago, and not exactly the types of radios that I'm here for at this forum. While we do come across some radios that would fit into that 'commercial and professional radio' category, which I WILL be coming to this forum for, we also deal with radios that don't quite fit into that category.

I'm seeking aid and assistance on government radios, which in of itself isn't easy to find someone local to the many Air Force bases that we install our product. (Rest assured, I'm NOT looking for anything that might be considered CLASSIFIED, TOP SECRET, or even Proprietary unless I absolutely need to know and can't find that proprietary installation manual.) Even if we do find a local tech, be it base personnel or private 3rd party company, most would never have integrated a radio into a telephone system, so they don't have that keen eye and understanding on what to look for, connectivity-wise, let alone signal-wise.

Mostly, I'm just looking for people who might could lend their knowledge for external connections on some of these radios. For example, someone who would know the pin outs of J22 on the back of a GRC171, and what signals it would need / produce (impedance, voltage, keying characteristics, etc.) in order to be used remotely by our telephone system's three primary analog signals (TX+/-, RX+/-, PTT/Ref).

Other tidbits of knowledge we would need to know are:

• Is it a 2-wire unbalanced or 4-wire balanced audio for transmit and receive...
• Does it Key using Dry Contact Closure (or opening... seen that once), Ground Keying, Voltage Keying, Tone Signalling, 24VDC center-tap on the TX wires, or Vulcan Mind Meld?
• Are there jumper settings to change the keying requirements, or is it done programmatically, or not at all?
• Programming options to turn on outputs to a data logger (audio recorder).

Things of that nature.

Wow, such a long answer for such a short question.

-Shooter

I would contact a radio service provider like those that service public safety and business systems. Their employees are usually former military radio technicians, or do you just want to get these services at no cost.

I second the above recommendation that you partner with a radio shop or other qualified service provider (even the manufacturers of the above equipment). As the world moves away from traditional 2 way radio, your going to see less and less local talent. As such, you will increasingly need to provide these interfaces and knowledge from your organization. I work for a large radio shop near a large military base and can see how this would be expensive and time consuming to do the R & D and bill it back to you. From my perspective, I would find a retired (or current) military radio tech and hammy dude who want to take on a side gig. TT

W8RMH said:

I would contact a radio service provider like those that service public safety and business systems. Their employees are usually former military radio technicians, or do you just want to get these services at no cost.

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Finding a radio service provider is typically a huge challenge considering that we are flown into the area that is to receive our product... it's not like there's a directory of radio techs with extensive military radio background readily available, and that's IF there's even a radio shop in the area of some of these bases. We've gone to several bases where the closest 'radio shop' is 4 hours away... not feasible. Also, we've found local radio shops and they didn't have any knowledge of products outside of their sales.

Most Air Force bases HAVE a radio tech assigned to handle their radios, but have no idea how to integrate them with external products such as our telephone system... they just have a T.O. to follow, and we've found those don't always have the necessary information we require. Those techs typically just pull and replace, test, and sometimes program. Even T.O.s that have the necessary information within, sometimes you just need to talk (write, send smoke signals) to someone to get through all of the muckety-muck in order for it to make sense.

As to getting those services at no cost... because the base has a 'radio tech', they do not budget for outside 3rd party companies to provide more information. With the way that the contracts are written (completely outside of my control), it is the base's responsibility to provide the necessary support for integration, but as I've said, they often times don't know how. Besides, try as I might, I've yet to find a place to swipe my company's credit card on a forum like RF let alone how to justify doing so to my supervisors.

It is somewhat perplexing as to how we got to this point within this thread. All I was asking in my OP was which sub-forum I should go to when in need of assistance for integrating these military radios. (Wait... Is this one of those forums where I'll be asked superfluous questions such as what color the wheel rims are if I originally ask where's the best place to put a VHF antenna on a 2007 Crown Vic? I've been in one of those before dealing with Motorola radios.)

-Shooter

TampaTyron said:

... partner with a radio shop or other qualified service provider (even the manufacturers of the above equipment).

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Therein lies the reason why I'm coming to a forum... I've yet to find anyone with the knowledge, let alone the qualifications to partner with. Now, if I could find someone via this or other forums, then I'm all for it, but there isn't anyone in my home area that I can do this with... at least none found so far (Biloxi, MS area).

To your comment about contacting the manufacturer, as "a worker for a large radio shop near a large military base", TT, you may have noticed that a great number of older military radios were designed by Company A, sold to Company B for manufacturing, then sold again to Company C years later, and now we're at Company K IF they're still open. Tracking down product support can be daunting at times.

Google has led me to some degree of success, mostly found on forums like this one. This is one such thread that led me here.

Take that GRR23 radio for example... the only thing that I can find online about it is a very simplistic parts diagram (TM-11-5820-805-24P)... rather useless to me. The base had a copy of this very same manual that they paid for believing it to be a 'real' manual. We ended up spending about 9 hours total trying an assortment of connections at the rear connector to get it connected (at the risk of doing damage), and I'm not convinced we have it 100% right... seems we're connected to a speaker output instead of headphones output. This is time that wasn't budgeted, and as such, my coworker, the base radio tech, and myself gave free labor figuring it out (3 hours X 3 people). Btw, we 'telco' techs aren't allowed to open a radio due to liability and licensing issues. If I could, I might be able to back-trace the circuits to figure things out.

By utilizing a forum such as this one, I can proactively post a request for information weeks ahead of our arrival, and often times gather enough information or a lead to cut that time considerably. That's the beauty of the internet.

-Shooter

Curious as to what liability and licensing issues there might be.

WA0CBW said:

Curious as to what liability and licensing issues there might be.

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It isn't obvious? If we open and cause damage to a radio, then we own it. Some of these radios go for well over $80k (or so I've seen on receipts). If I had that kind of money, I most certainly wouldn't be here establishing what I hope to be a good relationship with forum members... I'd be on a beach somewhere enjoying a nice adult-type beverage.

Also, if memory serves me correctly, only FCC license holders are allowed to 'service', or perform maintenance on two-way radios of this caliber. I no longer hold any FCC licenses. (Shoot, I can't even remember which rule it is that makes it a requirement... it's been that long ago.)

None of our tech have FCC licenses (other than Amateur and Radar endorsements). Most of us have our CET. 9 hours seems about right if you have limited info, but have the hardware in front of you. I do sympathize with you on letting the smoke out of something expensive, the first one is almost always the most painful. We install and maintain large Mototrbo radio systems all over the country and our big wiggs still cannot understand the difficulty of installing multi-site trunking systems. They are under the impression that you turn the equipment on and walk away. It has been an uphill battle to get the appropriate resources to meet the customer's needs. TT

I'm seeking a forum that can help me and my company when it comes time to install a telephone type product, and this product integrates with a wide variety of military-grade radios (HF/VHF/UHF AM or FM)

This is a really broad statement. What is it you are trying to do? More basic info in needed, like, take radio erty and interface to the local phone for local calls.

As stated above, trying to find ex military people that will know the radios AND have ANY phone experence is about 1 in million. They are either one or the other.

As for interfacing radios into phone systems, there are several companies that make phone interfaces.

As an old military radio guy and phone service tech, until I started work at a commercial radio shop I never had to deal with radio/telco interface.

Since then, over the years I have used devices like the raytheon jps 292 to do the inter face. This work great and can be used with just about any radio.

Google raytheon jps 292 and check it out. They are not cheap and raytheon has great support.

cabletech said:

TX_Shooter said:

I'm seeking a forum that can help me and my company when it comes time to install a telephone type product, and this product integrates with a wide variety of military-grade radios (HF/VHF/UHF AM or FM)

Click to expand...

This is a really broad statement. What is it you are trying to do? More basic info in needed, like, take radio erty and interface to the local phone for local calls.

Click to expand...

Er.... I thought that I had done that:

TX_Shooter said:

Mostly, I'm just looking for people who might could lend their knowledge for external connections on some of these radios. For example, someone who would know the pin outs of J22 on the back of a GRC171, and what signals it would need / produce (impedance, voltage, keying characteristics, etc.) in order to be used remotely by our telephone system's three primary analog signals (TX+/-, RX+/-, PTT/Ref).

Other tidbits of knowledge we would need to know are:

• Is it a 2-wire unbalanced or 4-wire balanced audio for transmit and receive...
• Does it Key using Dry Contact Closure (or opening... seen that once), Ground Keying, Voltage Keying, Tone Signalling, 24VDC center-tap on the TX wires, or Vulcan Mind Meld?
• Are there jumper settings to change the keying requirements, or is it done programmatically, or not at all?
• Programming options to turn on outputs to a data logger (audio recorder).

Things of that nature.

Click to expand...

I reckon that I'll need to work on being more clear in the future.

cabletech said:

Google raytheon jps 292 and check it out. They are not cheap and raytheon has great support.

Click to expand...

We just got through replacing one of those with CSI's Flex II Universal Controller. I don't know how much the RTU-292 costs, but I daresay that the Flex II is probably cheaper. We've been using them for years. One downside to them is that they're analog only, meaning no IP, ROIP, VOIP, or MOTO9600 (whatever it's called).

Don't over-think it. Isn't the purpose of the exercise is to have a voice on the phone talk to another voice over the radio?

The telephone side is simple voice, and any 'box' will give you TX +/-, Rx +/- PTT and COR. You are not going to be able to see data on the phone. Interoperability often boils down to using the lowest common denominator: ask yourself if you really need to connect to that many different radios, or if it might be more expedient to have a limited number of pre-configured radios in your go-bag.

What you do need is the manual for every radio you are going to interface which will give you pinouts and levels.Good luck finding one person who knows every possible pinout of every possible radio at 3AM on a dark and stormy night. And even if you do, he will want to check the books.

The down and dirty test instrument for adjusting levels is attached to the sides of your head. If it sounds clear and just right, it must be.

There are tons of products out there to convert analog telephone (POTS) to radio. CSI is the price point leader. Voip is a bit touchier (read as more $). I will pitch JPS, and also Icom's VE-PG3, which speaks everything from POTS to SIP.

When pondering any of the JPS/Raytheon interop products, you only need to know two words: Benny Hillman. Gentleman and genius.

jeatock said:

...ask yourself if you really need to connect to that many different radios, or if it might be more expedient to have a limited number of pre-configured radios in your go-bag.

What you do need is the manual for every radio you are going to interface which will give you pinouts and levels.

Click to expand...

Perhaps I need to once again clarify my request... I'm looking for a sub-forum to post my future requests for knowledge on military radios' external connections, particularly those radios that are lesser known or have lesser available support. Right now, we're in the " The RadioReference.com Forums > Commercial and Professional Radio > Industry Discussion" sub-forum, and I'm not sure it's where I need to go when seeking the information I'll need to do my job.


Also, on the lines of further clarification, our Siemens (now Unify) Hipath 4000 telephone system already has a box to communicate with radios, and I've mentioned it before... the CSI Flex II, specifically built for Siemens. I'm not looking to change that device out for something else... I was just mentioning some of its digital shortfalls that might require another 3rd party solution.

On occasion we've needed to send a radio's signal to the Hipath over long distances. For those cases we use the MVP-x10 from MultiTech in conjunction with WebRelay-Quad from ControlByWeb (for the PTT), utilizing Versitron's media converter (IP over Fiber). Typically we place the Flex II at the Hipath location for the E&M interfacing and send the radio signals over fiber, but on rare occasions we'll place it at the radio end and send the E&M signals over fiber to the Hipath (the MVP unit is flexible like that).

One other point of clarification... whatever radios the base have, in place, operating, working, etc... that's what we HAVE to work with. We aren't replacing it with any ol' radio in our 'Go bag'... we can't... not our place to do so. We aren't installing any radios. We aren't even going to suggest to the base that THEY replace them. The cold hard facts are (to me as an installer): They have an existing radio, and they want it integrated with our telephone system... go forth and make it work, somehow (oh, and don't spend any money on it).


So to summarize, I'm just looking for a place to post my questions about radio connections that we might on occasion need help on... not every radio... not looking to replace parts of our system... just analog radio connections for those obscure military radios.

-Shooter

I'd say you're in the right forum, but I haven't found any other way than to build your own personal database. Sucks having to re-invent the wheel every time. Basic laboratory technique of probing radio connectors to see what happens, what pins do RX audio, trying to find TX Audio, PTT & COR signals, if available.

On a slightly related note, if you're a tech, and your management is the ones doing the selling of these systems/services, they need to continually be told you can't spin gold out of straw; They need to either give you the resources, help you find them, or give you the time to find them.

Tho' the manuals for an XTL5000 radio should be easy to come by thru any Motorola radio shop.

Oh, just had an idea; look for forums that deal with military communications gear, such as the units you list. I just googled each radio model you listed in OP, and came up with multiple web pages for each one. Your google-fu mileage may vary; make it strong, young Jedi.

kb4mdz said:

I'd say you're in the right forum, but I haven't found any other way than to build your own personal database. Sucks having to re-invent the wheel every time. Basic laboratory technique of probing radio connectors to see what happens, what pins do RX audio, trying to find TX Audio, PTT & COR signals, if available.

On a slightly related note, if you're a tech, and your management is the ones doing the selling of these systems/services, they need to continually be told you can't spin gold out of straw; They need to either give you the resources, help you find them, or give you the time to find them.

Tho' the manuals for an XTL5000 radio should be easy to come by thru any Motorola radio shop.

Oh, just had an idea; look for forums that deal with military communications gear, such as the units you list. I just googled each radio model you listed in OP, and came up with multiple web pages for each one. Your google-fu mileage may vary; make it strong, young Jedi.

Click to expand...

Google-fu... I'm gonna have to remember that one. lol

I'm pretty close to an expert now on the XTL5000, EXCEPT!!! They threw a curve ball at me with the latest consolettes... the ACC2 connector I/O doesn't seem to work with our system anymore. We couldn't get a clean TX audio through it at our last base, and we tried several. So we had to do some tricky internal-to-the-consolette patching to get it to work.

And that whole thing about "spin gold out of straw".... yeah buddy!! They need to give me a raise for proactively finding solutions rather than leaving it all up to the base, who would simply say, "Ok, since it doesn't work, we don't want your expensive system... take it back."

Finding TX audio can be dangerous. PTT could inadvertently short something to ground. And, if the radio is setup with Center-Tap keying, putting the wrong voltage on the TX pair could zap it as well. Not easy to be careful and get the job done with the short amount of time we are given. (We're basically given about 10-18 hours once the programmers turn everything on, and turning the system over to the government.)

Most Military radios have a balanced mic input for a dynamic mic element. So you should use isolation transformers and attenuator pads going to the mil radio mic input.
PTT is usually a ground contact.

Earphone/handset receiver is usually a unbalanced audio anywhere from 100 ohms to 600 ohms impedance.

And yes we have done lots of interface projects to radios and telephones. Headsets and other mics.

Motorola GM300 mic on a ICOM7200 HF radio for field day....