• To anyone looking to acquire commercial radio programming software:

    Please do not make requests for copies of radio programming software which is sold (or was sold) by the manufacturer for any monetary value. All requests will be deleted and a forum infraction issued. Making a request such as this is attempting to engage in software piracy and this forum cannot be involved or associated with this activity. The same goes for any private transaction via Private Message. Even if you attempt to engage in this activity in PM's we will still enforce the forum rules. Your PM's are not private and the administration has the right to read them if there's a hint to criminal activity.

    If you are having trouble legally obtaining software please state so. We do not want any hurt feelings when your vague post is mistaken for a free request. It is YOUR responsibility to properly word your request.

    To obtain Motorola software see the Sticky in the Motorola forum.

    The various other vendors often permit their dealers to sell the software online (i.e., Kenwood). Please use Google or some other search engine to find a dealer that sells the software. Typically each series or individual radio requires its own software package. Often the Kenwood software is less than $100 so don't be a cheapskate; just purchase it.

    For M/A Com/Harris/GE, etc: there are two software packages that program all current and past radios. One package is for conventional programming and the other for trunked programming. The trunked package is in upwards of $2,500. The conventional package is more reasonable though is still several hundred dollars. The benefit is you do not need multiple versions for each radio (unlike Motorola).

    This is a large and very visible forum. We cannot jeopardize the ability to provide the RadioReference services by allowing this activity to occur. Please respect this.

Any reason to build P25 Phase I?

Status
Not open for further replies.

popnokick

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
2,841
Location
Northeast PA
Based on postings here in the various RadioReference Forums and what appears to be the direction of the commercial/professional communications industry, is there any reason at all to even consider buying/building a P25 Phase I system? Are manufacturers even telling their customers they have a choice (Phase I or Phase 2), or is the message "It's all Phase 2 if you install new"? Has P25 Phase II arrived and become the de facto standard for all new P25 systems?
 

jim202

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
2,735
Location
New Orleans region
Based on postings here in the various RadioReference Forums and what appears to be the direction of the commercial/professional communications industry, is there any reason at all to even consider buying/building a P25 Phase I system? Are manufacturers even telling their customers they have a choice (Phase I or Phase 2), or is the message "It's all Phase 2 if you install new"? Has P25 Phase II arrived and become the de facto standard for all new P25 systems?


You need to define your question some to get a better answer. The FCC has stayed the requirement to narrow band the 700 MHz channels, so there is now no reason to go to P25 phase 2 on the 700 band.

The real reason for the P25 phase 2 was to provide additional channel capacity and be able to have what would basically be 2 conversations going within one RF carrier. If your agency is not strapped for the need to have additional channels, there is no need to spend the extra money for phase 2 radio equipment.

Again with my above statement, some but not all the radios being sold today have the ability to do phase 2. Most of them have the phase 2 ability in the radio, but it may not be activated by the version of firmware the radio was sold with. Bottom line here is the cost of having the radios do phase 2. If you don't need it, don't buy the feature.

Having slightly missed your main question about going to P25 phase one, let me try to continue. P25 phase one is basically adding digital to the mode of communications. Are you required to go digital, not really. Many of the federal grant money sources available (most are starting to dry up) have a statement in them that recommends going to a digital mode radio system. There are some advantages to going digital. Not all of them mean much to the average user. Most of these requirements state that the radios need to be P25 capable, but they don't say that you have to have that feature active in the radio.

The digital radio system allows for the user radio and the radio system to pass some information back and forth. You have the ability in some radios to do recovery of poor signals so it will error correct (if I can use this simple term) parts of the digital signal. This can extend the range a finite amount in low signal areas to some extent. It just won't drop off the end of the cliff when you get to the edge of the coverage areas like the first digital systems did with no warning.

You can purchase the option of over the air programming of the radios. This will save the time of having to bring the radio back to the shop for program channel changes. But the over the air programming is slow. You have the ability to send the radio ID and emergency notification without the annoying MDC data bursts that you had with an analog radio system. The quality of the voice audio can be a mixed blessing. Some people like it others hate it. Originally loud background noises covered up the voice audio. This has been corrected for the most part with the current family of radios and accessories.

The real choice depends what you want out of your radios and radio systems. Each agency and users have different requirements. If you look up the guidelines from NFPA, they recommend that fire ground operations stay analog. Having some 45 years under my belt around and with the fire service, i have to support this recommendation.

Bottom line here is it really depends on what your using the radio system for, how your using it and what the coverage requirements are. If you have very good coverage with your radio system, then digital would probably be just fine for you. If your always out on the distant ends of the coverage, the digital system is not a good choice. If your always inside large buildings with poor inside radio coverage, digital is probably a poor choice for your operations.
 
Last edited:

popnokick

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
2,841
Location
Northeast PA
Some more definition to the question (I hope)....
If the decision is made to go digital... and also P25... is there a reason to only use Phase I? Such as
- Phase I costs less (firmware, hardware, licensing, etc.)?
- Phase I equipment is more readily available?
- Phase I is simpler and lower cost to install?
... or are all of the above simply incorrect, and if the decision is to go digital using P25, then you will go Phase II simply because:
- Phase II is readily available
- Manufacturers are incenting customers to use Phase II (lower pricing, special deals, etc.)
- Govt grants are specifying Phase II
Main question is the same: Assuming decision is digital and P25, is there ANY reason to even consider Phase I?
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
Some more definition to the question (I hope)....
If the decision is made to go digital... and also P25... is there a reason to only use Phase I? Such as
- Phase I costs less (firmware, hardware, licensing, etc.)?
- Phase I equipment is more readily available?
- Phase I is simpler and lower cost to install?
... or are all of the above simply incorrect, and if the decision is to go digital using P25, then you will go Phase II simply because:
- Phase II is readily available
- Manufacturers are incenting customers to use Phase II (lower pricing, special deals, etc.)
- Govt grants are specifying Phase II
Main question is the same: Assuming decision is digital and P25, is there ANY reason to even consider Phase I?

When AFRRCS was being put together (it's been in build stage for a very long time), I believe that not only was there a lot more P1 radio vendors than P2 (and one of AFRRCS's mandates is that users should be able to use any vendor's radio they choose), P2 wasn't even standardized yet. So that kind of speaks to "equipment is more readily available" in your points above. At this stage, I think there's a lot more people with P2 offerings, and it's probably not appreciably more dollar-wise than a P1 subscriber unit. I can't say for sure, though, since I am only pricing out P1 stuff myself.
 

Voyager

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2002
Messages
12,060
Based on postings here in the various RadioReference Forums and what appears to be the direction of the commercial/professional communications industry, is there any reason at all to even consider buying/building a P25 Phase I system? Are manufacturers even telling their customers they have a choice (Phase I or Phase 2), or is the message "It's all Phase 2 if you install new"? Has P25 Phase II arrived and become the de facto standard for all new P25 systems?

There are counties in my area upgrading to P25 Phase I systems. So far, only one is going Phase II.

Joe M.
 

KE5TLF

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
1,559
Location
MS Gulf Coast
Some more definition to the question (I hope)....
If the decision is made to go digital... and also P25... is there a reason to only use Phase I? Such as
- Phase I costs less (firmware, hardware, licensing, etc.)?
- Phase I equipment is more readily available?
- Phase I is simpler and lower cost to install?
... or are all of the above simply incorrect, and if the decision is to go digital using P25, then you will go Phase II simply because:
- Phase II is readily available
- Manufacturers are incenting customers to use Phase II (lower pricing, special deals, etc.)
- Govt grants are specifying Phase II
Main question is the same: Assuming decision is digital and P25, is there ANY reason to even consider Phase I?

Yes
Yes
Yes

No
No
Not really, not any more...(of course any given system's governing body can specify whatever they want specific to whatever assets they are in charge of.)
 

grem467

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
884
Location
Houston, TX
Analogy:

Why would you buy a new DVD player when you could buy a blu-ray player and still be able to play DVDs on it.

If I were to put a system in, I would want to future proof it as much as possible. Having the extra talk paths could come in handy.
 

Voyager

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2002
Messages
12,060
Analogy:

Why would you buy a new DVD player when you could buy a blu-ray player and still be able to play DVDs on it.

If I were to put a system in, I would want to future proof it as much as possible. Having the extra talk paths could come in handy.

Apples and oranges because the available radios for Phase I far outnumber those for Phase II and are much less expensive. So, if cost is a factor, you don't want to use the latest tech. (Yes, I know for most P25 users cost is "irrelevant")
 

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,237
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
Most new procurements around my region are phase 2 out the door, but some are phase 2 cores being run in either DDM or phase 1 for the time being to maintain compatibility with their existing fleet. As the fleet ages and replacement subscriber units go online, the migration path is indeed towards phase 2 in the 3-5 year timeline.

Most of the existing phase 1 Astro 25 networks in my neck of the woods have upgraded their cores to phase 2 and are just riding out their phase 1 gear until it's not economical to repair and plan to replace with phase 2 radios . Moving from phase 1 to phase 2 isn't hard at all if your core is capable. Doubling capacity is a real plus, it's like expanding your system without adding any costly infrastructure.

At this point, if I were to buy a new DTRS, it would be a phase 2 core. Now, if I had existing phase 1 subscriber gear, I would configure my fleetmap as phase 1 only until my fleet was replaced. With DDM it is also possible to strap some talkgroups as phase 1 capable, for interoperability with outside agencies who have only phase 1 radios, but doing so means possibly reducing overall capacity of the system, depending on how that radio ID and DDM talkgroup is provisioned.
 

popnokick

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
2,841
Location
Northeast PA
So it's been a year since the original questions in this thread. Has anything changed, or would there still be reasons to install P25 Phase I in a new system build?
 

ElroyJetson

I AM NOT YOUR TECH SUPPPORT.
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 8, 2002
Messages
3,704
Location
DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP PROGRAMMING YOUR RADIO. NO.
Nearly all current generation Phase 1 P25 equipment is capable in hardware to run Phase 2 and from that point it's just a software upgrade to get to Phase 2. I predict that most Phase 1 operators will eventually migrate to Phase 2.
 

riveter

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
1,481
Location
MD
Nearly all current generation Phase 1 P25 equipment is capable in hardware to run Phase 2 and from that point it's just a software upgrade to get to Phase 2. I predict that most Phase 1 operators will eventually migrate to Phase 2.

There are a lot lot lot lot lot lot of agencies fielding XTS2500s and 5000s who can't do that migration for the forseeable future - understandable when you're a whole city replacing 1000+ radios. You're certainly right in that Motorola has of course already issued a cancellation notice for the XTS5000 series, after which no Depot repairs will be possible and parts will start to become difficult to find. Once that point gets close enough, they'll be out of options and will have to bite that expensive bullet.


To the OP.... well, if you're building a new system from scratch, you might as well get Phase II if you can. If you can't afford it, then yes. That's your one BIG concern there that might drive Phase I system building... until that cancellation date gets closer and agencies won't be able to buy or repair 1st generation P25 subscribers.
 
Last edited:

N4DES

Retired 0598 Czar ÆS Ø
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,391
Location
South FL
We just fininshed an RFP and award and are building a mixed Phase I and II simulcast system. We did a lot of evaluating and taking into consideration things like future loading and Fail Soft, so we are fielding a 24 channel Phase I system that will allow for 10 of those 24 channels to be Phase II capable and will also keep our SmartZone system live with limitied channels for a year after to maintain interop with any stragglers.

It was the most pratical way to go being a large number of users are still utilizing XTS/XTL 2500's that we received from rebanding and it is less expensive for us to flash the radios to Phase I than to purchase new, especially for our Local Government users and municiplaities that have tight budgets.
 

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,237
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
Our agency just completed ATP on our simulcast 7.13 phase 2 system yesterday, but we have all talkgroups provisioned for DDM. We have some users like Animal Control who have APX4000s and are phase 2, the majority of our fleet are XTS/XTL, so should a county user need to talk on that TG, they will downgrade the call to FDMA but this allows us to get a little more life out of the older XTS/XTL radios and not isolate users who may need to interop with phase 1 subscribers. That is one major consideration though of running dual mode when fleetmapping, capacity is cut in half on a given channel even if only ONE phase 1 radio is registered on that TG.

We are looking at replacing the fleet over the next 12-24 mo., at which time we may make all TGs TDMA only, we really need the capacity as we had to give up two of our 14 channels from our current Smartnet system in the process of migration.

I don't see any reason why someone would procure a phase 1 only core, but I certainly see the logic in procuring a dual mode capable system (DDM in Astro 25 speak, I know Harris has a similar form/function on their VIDA core). Many of our users are acquiring APX/Phase 2 capable radios piecemeal to replace XTS/XTL and in some cases, analog only MTS2000/MCS2000 radios.
 

ElroyJetson

I AM NOT YOUR TECH SUPPPORT.
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 8, 2002
Messages
3,704
Location
DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP PROGRAMMING YOUR RADIO. NO.
My county is treating phase 1 as a buildup to phase 2. The idea is to get the whole system working properly on phase 1 and when everything is configured, aligned, timed, and working perfectly, they'll run with it in that mode for several months to a year to ensure everything is reliable and then throw the phase 2 switch on the whole system. With all the RF work having been carefully done to a high standard, then the system should work on phase 2 with few if any wrinkles in the carpet. Which will be subsequently ironed out.

Why not go directly to phase 2? Because going from an EDACS system to Phase 2 is a revolution.
Going from EDACS to Phase 1 is merely an evolution. Once Phase 1 is working right, moving to Phase 2 is another evolution. The migration will thus involve fewer changes from one stage to the next, rather than going all the way to an entirely new architecture in one fell swoop.

They'll also have the ability to fall back to phase 1 at the touch of a button.

Until, that is, the phase 1 data is removed from the subscriber radios. Once they do that, they're more or less locked in to phase 2. It better be RIGHT at that point.
 

Project25_MASTR

Millennial Graying OBT Guy
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
4,209
Location
Texas
This is an interesting thread. My view, I'm watching counties that are looking to migrate to digital. They are only running conventional...there is no need for them to move to a trunked system (not enough users). Their big "concern" is that either the gov is going to say all interop be Phase 1 capable (or run in mixed mode) so they are wanting to go ahead and migrate over to newer systems (maybe even play with voting/simulcast systems) or they have a need for secure communications.

Cost versus needed capacity is probably the biggest concern, cost versus security I would say the second.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top