Trunk sites questions (split bands and trunk/conv)

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Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
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I think I've asked this before but it bears some clarification if the DB head admin and/or other DB admins can offer some insight.

A P25 phase 1 system being built in my province will have some 700 MHz multi-channel (traditional) trunk sites, and some 700 MHz single-channel (voice on control) sites, some VHF single-channel (voice on control) sites - and some sites which will have 700 MHz and VHF together, in both 700 traditional trunk coupled with VHF VOC, and 700 VOC coupled with VHF VOC. The documentation insinuates that the sites with two bands in use will have both "sites" transmitting the same WACN, SysID, RFSS, and SiteID on two separate control channels at the same geographic location, one for each band. How would the RRDB reflect that accurately?

There will also be sites in this system which will have VHF conventional P25 repeaters linked to the trunk, with the appropriate talkgroups used on each conventional site (i.e. if Police Dispatch is tg 1500 on the trunk, the P25 conventional channel will broadcast it on tg 1500 as well). Any thoughts on how that would be ideally represented in the DB? Just a conventional channel entry with a link to the trunk system's DB entry included?
 

kayn1n32008

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I think I've asked this before but it bears some clarification if the DB head admin and/or other DB admins can offer some insight.

A P25 phase 1 system being built in my province will have some 700 MHz multi-channel (traditional) trunk sites, and some 700 MHz single-channel (voice on control) sites, some VHF single-channel (voice on control) sites - and some sites which will have 700 MHz and VHF together, in both 700 traditional trunk coupled with VHF VOC, and 700 VOC coupled with VHF VOC. The documentation insinuates that the sites with two bands in use will have both "sites" transmitting the same WACN, SysID, RFSS, and SiteID on two separate control channels at the same geographic location, one for each band. How would the RRDB reflect that accurately?

There will also be sites in this system which will have VHF conventional P25 repeaters linked to the trunk, with the appropriate talkgroups used on each conventional site (i.e. if Police Dispatch is tg 1500 on the trunk, the P25 conventional channel will broadcast it on tg 1500 as well). Any thoughts on how that would be ideally represented in the DB? Just a conventional channel entry with a link to the trunk system's DB entry included?


Subscribe. This looks like it will be a unique system. Something we have not seen before on any radio system. I'm interested in how RR database will handle this.


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665_NJ

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Make a Submission, Please....

A lot of users put critical info into the forums looking for answers.
When none of (DB Admins) reply's they get upset.
RR DB Admins are not required to make changes from information posted in the forums.
And not to knock the forums, your can try also one of the technical threads to try to get information i.e. Project 25 Technologies

Therefore if you make a submission, it is numbered, tracked and viewable amongst many DB Admins either to work on or research it. There is a better chance of the issue being resolved "officially".
Please try submitting all the data you can about this "New" type of system as an actual "submission"
Then lets see what happens.

Thanks and Holiday Greetings,

Max:cool:
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
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Max,
I've been a DB admin here for many years (before circumstances forced me to "retire"), so I'm very well versed in how the DB submission system works. The person who would be working any submission I made posted in this thread as well, and wouldn't have any better idea than I would how to address it.

The question needs to be answered by the DB manager; the problem is that the management of the site has been anonymized over the past couple years, and they all seem to follow the trend of rejecting PMs, so even if you could figure out who is in charge, you'd have a hard time getting in touch with them. Furthermore, as the system in question is a major provincewide system, the answer is of benefit to not just me privately as would be the result if I kept it to a submission or email. The solution needs to be out in the open in the forums so that everyone knows how to proceed.

In summary: Thanks for your input, but respectfully, this is a question only the DB manager can answer.
 
D

dmb41crash

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Max,
I've been a DB admin here for many years (before circumstances forced me to "retire"), so I'm very well versed in how the DB submission system works. The person who would be working any submission I made posted in this thread as well, and wouldn't have any better idea than I would how to address it.

The question needs to be answered by the DB manager; the problem is that the management of the site has been anonymized over the past couple years, and they all seem to follow the trend of rejecting PMs, so even if you could figure out who is in charge, you'd have a hard time getting in touch with them. Furthermore, as the system in question is a major provincewide system, the answer is of benefit to not just me privately as would be the result if I kept it to a submission or email. The solution needs to be out in the open in the forums so that everyone knows how to proceed.

In summary: Thanks for your input, but respectfully, this is a question only the DB manager can answer.

You're joking, right? If you've been around for that many years, you should've been able to find this info easily.

RadioReference.com Leadership Team

http://forums.radioreference.com/members/wa8pyr.html
 

kayn1n32008

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You're joking, right? If you've been around for that many years, you should've been able to find this info easily.



RadioReference.com Leadership Team



http://forums.radioreference.com/members/wa8pyr.html


Are you?

Jay has asked some pretty legitimate questions with respect to the system in question. Nobody from management has responded. You are not adding anything of value to this thread... Unless you can answer the question(s) that Jay has asked... After all it is in the database admin forum...
 
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dmb41crash

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You missed the point, pal. He's spouting some nonsense about the management of the site being anonymous and not accepting private messages. My post set the record straight and provided him with the profile of the database manager, who accepts private messages. If he is so concerned about this issue, he can contact Tom Swisher privately to ask why no response has been given.

Jay likes to get his little digs at the site management in as often as possible. This was just another example of it. Don't be so quick to jump to his defense.
 

kayn1n32008

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A lot of users put critical info into the forums looking for answers.

Jay did not put critical info in the forum. He asked, in a thread in the database discussion forum no less, how RR was going to deal with a single system, on two bands, that is using both conventional/VOC/and traditional multichannel trunk sites across 2 bands.


When none of (DB Admins) reply's they get upset.

Not speaking for Jay, but it sounds more like disappointment that being upset.


RR DB Admins are not required to make changes from information posted in the forums.

Again, the info is not IN the forums... He is aski how RR is going to deal with the data in the database.

And not to knock the forums, your can try also one of the technical threads to try to get information i.e. Project 25 Technologies

Got a pretty good handle on the technology, and how Harris is implementing it... Just do not know how the RR database is going to present the data

Therefore if you make a submission, it is numbered, tracked and viewable amongst many DB Admins either to work on or research it. There is a better chance of the issue being resolved "officially".

All that to make this suggestion...

Thanks and Holiday Greetings,

Max:cool:


Merry Christmas to you, and a happy new year as we'll.
 

W8RMH

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Are you?

Jay has asked some pretty legitimate questions with respect to the system in question. Nobody from management has responded. You are not adding anything of value to this thread... Unless you can answer the question(s) that Jay has asked... After all it is in the database admin forum...

You must have skipped over Post #7.
 

mikewazowski

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The documentation insinuates that the sites with two bands in use will have both "sites" transmitting the same WACN, SysID, RFSS, and SiteID on two separate control channels at the same geographic location, one for each band. How would the RRDB reflect that accurately?

The database appears to be able to handle multiple sites with the same Site ID. I would suggest that the band be added to the Site Name to distinguish between the sites.

VOC sites would be treated as a regular site.

There will also be sites in this system which will have VHF conventional P25 repeaters linked to the trunk, with the appropriate talkgroups used on each conventional site (i.e. if Police Dispatch is tg 1500 on the trunk, the P25 conventional channel will broadcast it on tg 1500 as well). Any thoughts on how that would be ideally represented in the DB? Just a conventional channel entry with a link to the trunk system's DB entry included?

Good question. I could see two ways of doing it.

These sites could be included with the system but I think that without a control channel, most scanners would simply ignore them. I think something would have to be done to flag these sites as not having a control channel and manufacturers would have to come up with a firmware update to address this.

The second way is to enter them as conventional channels with a link back to the trunk system's database entry.

Unfortunately, there's no way of identifying talkgroups or I would say have a conventional entry for each talkgroup seen on the site. This would allow scanners to show proper talkgroup names. It would also help with DMR systems that have multiple groups on a channel.

I don't know how GRE/Whistler/Radio Shack scanners would handle this but Uniden users could create 1 frequency trunk systems. This would allow the talkgroups to be named.

I'll post a link to this in the DB Admin forum since Tom appears to have missed the thread.
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
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Entering two different sites with the same ID might work but also might cause some grief with third-party software that utilizes the RRDB - but I'm aware that that's their issue to look into and I'm in the process of bringing it up with them.

The second way is to enter them as conventional channels with a link back to the trunk system's database entry.

Unfortunately, there's no way of identifying talkgroups or I would say have a conventional entry for each talkgroup seen on the site. This would allow scanners to show proper talkgroup names. It would also help with DMR systems that have multiple groups on a channel.

I don't know how GRE/Whistler/Radio Shack scanners would handle this but Uniden users could create 1 frequency trunk systems. This would allow the talkgroups to be named.

I do think the RRDB needs to evolve to address talkgroups on conventional channels, agreed. In my experience, 99% of the P25 conventional I have monitored has had a TG even if it's just '1'. In my particular case, I think the "second way" that I quoted above is probably how it's going to have to go for now.

Of the GRE radios I have owned in the past, they've just displayed TG (and RID) info on screen when a P25 conventional channel is receiving. There's no provision to assign an alpha tag for it or for the radio IDs associated. That's the one thing that the "one frequency trunk" method Uniden employs does better in this regard.

I'll post a link to this in the DB Admin forum since Tom appears to have missed the thread.

Thanks much!
 

mikewazowski

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I'm pretty sure all P25 transmissions will have a talkgroup defined even if it is just the default of 1.
 

wa8pyr

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I'll post a link to this in the DB Admin forum since Tom appears to have missed the thread.

I did miss it, my apologies. I've been pretty busy with the full-time gig for the last month or so, so I haven't been able to review the forums as closely.

I'll review this and give a response in a day or so. I do concur that some changes are needed.
 

PJH

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I am trying to wrap myself around the system itself. Is this a Moto or Harris system, and are we positive on the configuration?

I only ask as that I system managers configuration and site routines, there can only be one site number in the RFSS and system configurations. If Motorola and used as an intellirepeater, if memory serves when we had them placed in service - basically is just another simulcast site and would have the same information as the host site.

Same with multiband frequencies at the same physical location, usually had two different site numbers. I know the last few updates to system software have allowed some unique (new) configurations however the subscribers still do things the old way.

In short, as far as the DB goes, it will allow whatever you put and the scanners should follow (at least in the CC mode). The uniden stuff (as far as I can tell) does not use the RFSS and the such other than to display the RRDB information it the site fields, unlike an actual radio may.

We have multiband sites on our wide area Phase 1 system, and the 800 stuff is given a different site number than our VHF stuff - and works well.
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
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It is a Harris system. It's definitely Phase 1, and the configuration is still a little fluid but seems to be firming up more day by day. It's not in functional operation yet - the only activity is from techs building the system and testing.

The system in question: Alberta First Responders' Radio Communication System (AFRRCS) Trunking System, Multiple Locations, Alberta - Scanner Frequencies

The "same site number" issue may turn out to be academic - I've visited the coverage area of a VHF site a few times lately and found that it is currently broadcasting as 247-247 when its 700 MHz component is sending 095-095. There was definitely a period of time when both sites were broadcasting the same RFSS and Site though. Perhaps that is possible with the system having four cores (two main, two backup, in geographically disparate locations). Anyway, right now nothing in my earshot is showing the same RFSS/Site combination, but there are a number of locations yet to be built which will have 700 "plus 1 VHF" which essentially means either a 4 or 8 channel 700 trunking site and a single frequency VHF VOC site, on the same tower, each communicating each other's data.

Yes, scanners will take whatever's put in the DB - for better and sometimes for worse, such as when multiple sites in relatively close geographical area (<100 miles) have like frequencies, as this system does in a couple of places. However, programs like Unitrunker and PRO96COM would probably have trouble with multiple sites showing the same ID. I've seen that before on the system ID level, with trying to download data on BEE00-14C, which has about 7 or 8 separate RRDB entries (may be down to 3 or so now), causing all sorts of problems in data downloads.

Anyway, for the immediate moment, the "same site" issue appears to have resolved itself. I can't say that it'll stay that way - no idea when they will get to building out the other VHF VOC sites in the system. However, the conventional-with-talkgroup sites are still going to show up eventually.
 
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