Becker County, MN - Ready or not, ARMER radio system here

Come Monday all law enforcement officers in Becker County, no matter what department they work for, will be on the same “page.”

That’s when the big switch over to ARMER radio happens. Law enforcement will be the first online; soon to follow will be area fire departments, EMS and other emergency responders.

Ready or not, ARMER radio system here | Detroit Lakes Online

That article is such a bucket of poo that I don't even know where to begin.
9/11.
Yeah OK. Because of 9/11, Minnesota needs ARMER meanwhile NYC is still using the same thing there were using on 9/11.
Must be the threat of train derailments. Well, if hauling oil by train is such a dangerous thing to do, then maybe the oil companies or the rail companies should be chipping in for the 300 million dollar radio systems.

ARMER is actually implemented really well. Almost all counties are on it in MN with no issues. It truly is a great, statewide system that allows Interop. The only downfall is that its an 800mhz system, where as neighboring states are all on VHF...including our WISCOM statewide system.

sfd119 said:

ARMER is actually implemented really well. Almost all counties are on it in MN with no issues. It truly is a great, statewide system that allows Interop.

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For $300 million, it had better be great.
Strictly from the standpoint of a longtime scanner listener, digital trunking is bad news. We never want to see that Pandora's box being opened because once it is, you can never close it. And if it happens to be more easily monitorable from the start, which is never the case, by the time phase 2 rolls around, that's the end. In the scanner hobby, digital trunking is the beginning of the end of our hobby and a huge entire state just migrated to it. And they migrated to it for reasons that are absolute baloney.

rapidcharger said:

For $300 million, it had better be great.
Strictly from the standpoint of a longtime scanner listener, digital trunking is bad news. We never want to see that Pandora's box being opened because once it is, you can never close it. And if it happens to be more easily monitorable from the start, which is never the case, by the time phase 2 rolls around, chances are it won't be any longer.

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It's very easy to monitor ARMER, limited encryption, and no plans of Phase 2 yet. Most of the consoles can't support it at this point. ARMER is a well thought out system, and almost every county is on it 100%.

sfd119 said:

It's very easy to monitor ARMER,)))

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It's not easier than it was.

sfd119 said:

((( limited encryption,)))

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That's still more than there was.

sfd119 said:

((( and no plans of Phase 2 yet.)))

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YET.
But now that there IS a phase one, there WILL BE a phase two.
You can take that one to the bank.

sfd119 said:

((( Most of the consoles can't support it at this point. )))

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"At this point". If they've demonstrated they can come up with $300 million, they can and will come up with more for new consoles when the manufacturer declares they are at the end of their life. Maybe even sooner. These are computer based network cores. Not the radio systems of yore.

sfd119 said:

(((ARMER is a well thought out system, and almost every county is on it 100%.

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Users of that system may feel that way but for people who enjoy listening to those users for recreation purposes, it's the beginning of the end of their hobby.

rapidcharger said:

It's not easier than it was.

That's still more than there was.


YET.
But now that there IS a phase one, there WILL BE a phase two.
You can take that one to the bank.

"At this point". If they've demonstrated they can come up with $300 million, they can and will come up with more for new consoles when the manufacturer declares they are at the end of their life. Maybe even sooner. These are computer based network cores. Not the radio systems of yore.


Users of that system may feel that way but for people who enjoy listening to those users for recreation purposes, it's the beginning of the end of their hobby.

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*No, I don't think encryption TGs have shown up more or less since the system has shown up. No Encryption on Statewide TAC channels, just local ones and it's usually narcotics/swat TGs. Although I mainly monitor the Wisconsin side of things.

*I don't understand how it's not easy to scan the Armer system. Put in the CCs and you're done. Or download it from the DB. I put the entire ARMER system in my 536, tweaked GPS settings, towers, etc and it took me a half hour at most. Took that long just because I was setting up GPS for how I wanted it. Default settings will let you scan right away.

*Consoles are old and each county is responsible for radios and county enhancements sites. No county has to go to Armer...but it makes sense up here. MNDot pays for the towers and maintenance, you pay for your radios and fees to be on the system. Most counties have found it's actually cheaper than their existing system(s), plus the added benefit of being able to go across the state and still talk to their Dispatch...or go to Wisconsin and ride the WISCOM system as well.

*Phase II is coming, but not for a long time, that was already stated in the MNDot meetings minutes (public btw).

I know you're a gun-ho against trunking radio systems and cost, and sometimes I agree with you...but this is actually a good system and has already helped Interop with MN agencies.

MN ARMER system should be the model for nationwide interoperability. As a former end-user I can attest to how good it works.

sfd119 said:

Although I mainly monitor the Wisconsin side of things.)))

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Ok well as we're going to find out from people who are trying to actively listen in MN, that things gradually get locked out for one reason or another. Usually its the same reason, with a million different convenient excuses. I speak from experience. And I also read every last one of the articles that gets posted here. I can see what's coming.

sfd119 said:

(((I don't understand how it's not easy to scan the Armer system. Put in the CCs and you're done. Or download it from the DB. I put the entire ARMER system in my 536, tweaked GPS settings, towers, etc and it took me a half hour at most. Took that long just because I was setting up GPS for how I wanted it. Default settings will let you scan right away.)))

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Well first, it must be nice to have such an expensive scanner. Congratulations.
Second, you may have found it very easy to do, but lots of people won't. And lots of people will never even get the chance to try because the price for admission to the hobby in MN has just quadrupled.

There will be countless problems posted. You'll see. There will also be complaints about audio quality. You'll see.

sfd119 said:

(((Consoles are old and each county is responsible for radios and county enhancements sites. No county has to go to Armer...but it makes sense up here. MNDot pays for the towers and maintenance, you pay for your radios and fees to be on the system. Most counties have found it's actually cheaper than their existing system(s), plus the added benefit of being able to go across the state and still talk to their Dispatch...or go to Wisconsin and ride the WISCOM system as well. )))

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Once again, you are listing benefits to users of the system not benefits to scanner listeners to which, there aren't many.
I'm not debating benefits to users of ARMER. I'm pointing out the obvious drawbacks to scanner listeners.

sfd119 said:

(((Phase II is coming, but not for a long time, that was already stated in the MNDot meetings minutes )))

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Like you pointed out, it's coming. And that will be the end.
You never reach the end of the trail until you start down that path.
It's taken my county 8 years to start shopping for phase 2. Not that long if you ask me.

sfd119 said:

(((I know you're a gun-ho against trunking radio systems and cost, and sometimes I agree with you...but this is actually a good system and has already helped Interop with MN agencies.

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I have not once said it was a bad system. I have not talked much about the cost and I haven't gone into the politics of it. I have simply stated that it is bad for scanner listeners, it spells the end of the hobby in MN and for the scanner listeners there and the ones that will never get to be, I shed many a tear.

If only this hobby was more like firearms ownership, where the powerful gun lobby fights anything that can get in the way of having or using a gun more difficult. If the NRA was looking out for scanner listeners, there would be no trunking at all. There would be no digital. There would be no narrowbanding. But it isn't. There's nobody looking out for scanner listeners. Nobody fighting to make it easier and cheaper to get into the hobby. Only the surety that the end will come and it will start with digital. Especially these statewide and regionwide networks. And that is regrettable and deeply unfortunate.

rapidcharger said:

Ok well as we're going to find out from people who are trying to actively listen in MN, that things gradually get locked out for one reason or another.

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I said I mainly monitor Wisconsin, didn't say I didn't listen to MN Armer. Again, they're not getting locked out. The MN ARMER board said they don't want encryption for daily operations.

rapidcharger said:

Well first, it must be nice to have such an expensive scanner. Congratulations.
Second, you may have found it very easy to do, but lots of people won't. And lots of people will never even get the chance to try because the price for admission to the hobby in MN has just quadrupled.

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First, because I have a $500 scanner doesn't give you the right to berate me. Second, if youre into a hobby, you'll spend the money. Third, if you buy a Home Patrol series scanner, you put your zip code in and you're done. Not sure why it's "so hard".

rapidcharger said:

There will be countless problems posted. You'll see. There will also be complaints about audio quality. You'll see.

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Not really, some Simulcast issues but check out the MN forums for all the "complaints". Oh wait, I haven't seen much.

rapidcharger said:

Once again, you are listing benefits to users of the system not benefits to scanner listeners to which, there aren't many.

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The users of the system are who the system is for, not the scanner listeners. And there are quite a few listeners.

rapidcharger said:

Like you pointed out, it's coming. And that will be the end.

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...you can monitor Phase II.

rapidcharger said:

it spells the end of the hobby in MN and for the scanner listeners there and the ones that will never get to be, I shed many a tear.

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You do realize ARMER has been around for 10 years, right? There hasn't been an end to scanning in Minnesota, but don't take my word for it, head on over to the MN forums on here.

As a MN ARMER listener, I have to say as long as a person understands the system, it is a far better scanning experience than conventional. I can punch in some control channels, and label some talkgroups if I want to know who they are, and just listen. Don't have to program 1000's of channels, and deal with static and choppy audio on the fringe areas, it's just there or it's not. And I can go just about anywhere in the state and get reception with a handheld scanner and a stock duck antenna.

I wouldn't call Digital Trunking bad for our hobby. Agencies that think they are above those whom they serve are the problem.

I love MPSCS and listening to it here in Michigan. It's so well organized and allows me to listen to all agencies I'm interested in this same quality with excellent reception from many sites around Michigan. Also the Event channels for things like presidential visits are a gem to catch on the scanner.

The problem is not the radio system. In Michigan MPSCS does not get involved with encryption decisions. MSP does not encrypt routine dispatch even though they can. Problem begins when small towns get upset that their chase got broadcasted on the scanner app and they buy ADP encryption and then NOT SHARE KEYS WITH ADJACENT AGENCIES. Yes I'm pointing fingers at you Canton, Livonia and at you Wayne Co Airport Authority (Encrypting Airport Fire? You what mate?).

Effectively encryption takes away all the benefits of being on a statewide trunked system. Might as well do Encrypted P25 conventional. You're too good to be listened to by the common man or even other agencies anyway.

I have been monitoring ARMER since it was the Metro Radio Boards system in the early 2000's. I am able to monitor more on this system with a handheld scanner than I could with my old base station. Car to Car, Fire Truck to Truck, Fireground channels, and City channels used to be simplex but are now on the system and much easier to monitor.
With ARMER Statewide Tac channels in the Metro I have heard pursuits, perp searches, large fires, from around the entire state which never was possible in the past.
As for encryption there was encryption in use before ARMER and there is encryption now, most of it was on investigations and SWAT channels where it should be. In the past 6 months some cities added it to City channels and most have switched back to clear.
In the metro area Mobil Data Computers have been in use since the late 80's, and these replaced data printers in the squads for many agencies, The policies of the Dispatch centers I have seen are to use Clear Voice for dispatch on Priority 1 calls, with history and details on the Computer, service calls(barking dogs, parking complaints) and routine traffic stops are often done by computer.

I am currently researching funding for regional radio system OPEX. Looking at what I can find online re: ARMER, I don't see much to indicate user fees or how a jurisdiction that does infrastructure (coverage) enhancements is compensated. Anyone have a link befor I contact the ARMER admin?

Large portions of the funding came from Grants- Federal and state, the state funded grants through bonds sales. Here is a link from the Central Minnesota Regional Radio Board that has some info on the grants available.
http://www.cmnradio.org/d/Grants/GrantFunding.aspx

DisasterGuy said:

I am currently researching funding for regional radio system OPEX. Looking at what I can find online re: ARMER, I don't see much to indicate user fees or how a jurisdiction that does infrastructure (coverage) enhancements is compensated. Anyone have a link befor I contact the ARMER admin?

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OP EX are funded from a portion of the 911 fee. There are NO user fees to be on the system.

As far as local enhancements, (coverage), typically the local entity funds the enhancement. The OP EX is added into the state maintenance contract. The local pays state the % that the enhancement added to the annual maintenance. I believe the same math applies when system upgrades are conducted.

For a regional system, I am very familiar with one locally. OP EX is split between all municipal/county entities. % of split is based upon population (US Census). When census is updated, math is updated. For very small cities, the county foots the tab. A regional FRU (Field Replaceable Unit) inventory is maintained. It becomes more difficult when entities "opt out", but not impossible.

I have seen other models. (Billing based upon "air time" or PTT's). Far too cumbersome to manage IMHO. KISS is best, if parties can agree.

Thanks. I take it that the PSAPs had to eat reduced funding as a result?

DisasterGuy said:

Thanks. I take it that the PSAPs had to eat reduced funding as a result?

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In MN, 911 monies are sent to the state. The state takes it's slice and then sends the remainder to the locals. I believe the remainder is ~$.15 per line. (I believe the .15 per line has remained constant over time) Of the states share, it funds other things related to 911/public safety also. In addition to ARMER and 911 (Next Gen), it funds IPAWS, ESINET (The Next Gen 911 statewide IP network for 911), as well as administration costs/ salaries/benefits. I believe a small % of the 911 fee also goes to Century Link/Intrado for the admin costs associated with fee collection. (5% if memory serves me correctly) 911 fees seem like a lot of money, until you start slicing up the pie.

Thanks, very different than in MD where the state retains only enough to pay two paid employees of the emergency numbers board and the rest is sent to support the operation of local PSAPS.

As we say in the UK

Here's my 2pence worth

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