Interoperability Channels

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mnrick

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On the advice of someone here I have programmed all the Statewide and Metro area Interoperability channels into my scanner. I have heard some interesting traffic on there but I have a few questions:

I have noticed that the ME TAC (Metro Tac) channels seem to be used for both police and fire. I have heard fireground ops on there and on the weekends I seem to hear what sounds like traffic details or DWI enforcement campaigns taking place on ME TAC.

The other morning it sounded like a fire in Scott County was using 006 (ST S TAC 1) as a fireground.

I understand that these are meant to be channels for different agencies to communicate with each other on but what decides the channel usage?

What decides if a multi agency fire goes to a ME TAC channel or onto 006 like the Belle Plaine fire was the other morning?

I am just trying to get a better understanding of how the system is used, how the channels are assigned.
 

Voyager

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Basically the local users dictate the channel usage. In my area they are used for all simplex communications. Of course, this same 911 center used to use 155.475 MHz for PD dispatch, so they have little regard for interop channels. In other words, they are free-for-all channels.
 

davef3138

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Hopefully someone will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong...

As far as I know, it's up to a dispatcher to engage regional/statewide talkgroups as needed for an event. I believe that they have a computer application available to them that coordinates their usage statewide, so that dispatchers know which talkgroups are in use. The radio board minutes refer to the application as "Status Board".

A quick Google search brought up this PowerPoint training presentation on it, complete with screenshots:

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ecn/Documents/StatusBoard End User Training D2l.pptx

-Dave
 

mnrick

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ofd8001, thank you for that link, I took a look at it and it should be informative.

Last night I heard a chase in the Wright County area that was on L-TAC-1, then later on there was one that sounded like it was going through NE Mpls until the suspect ran into a tree. The farthest distances I have heard so far was a chase in Rock County that ended with a report of shots fired, I looked that up the next day and the media reported that a suspect was shot.

So, it is a interesting system to listen to and I am glad I got it programmed in there.

The other night it sounded like White Bear Lake/Maplewood area police were on L-TAC-4 with something going on, they were watching a house and looking for a particular person to come out.

Thanks again for the info
 
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In other words, they are free-for-all channels.

Yeah,thats the impression I get here in central Mass,..Ive heard surveillance, traffic details,even discussions for lunch plans..Seems they are programmed into radios and have become a option for communications off the regular dept channels..
 

stmills

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The dispatch Center assigns/patches to the next available talk group based off of the shared Status Board. Planned events start on the highest talk group while breaking incidents start on the lowest- so a incident on Ltac1 will be a breaking incident- chase, pursuit, and Ltac4 event may be a traffic detail, warrant service, VIP event, or training event. Same thing holds true with Stacs.
 

jeatock

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Google your state's TICP and STIC, and NIFOG 1.5.

Every state and metro area has a DHS funded plan and non-metro counties have them also, or are in the process of writing them. The theory is sound: a policy and set of interoperable channels where all of the disciplines working an incident can talk to each other no matter what color suit they're wearing.

There are rules, policies or guidelines for 'first hour' use. Channels are used by a single discipline from multiple jurisdictions, or by multiple disciplines performing a similar function under the same Incident Command structure. Actual use will vary from state to state, and between regions in the same state, 'and your mileage may vary'.

If the incident is big enough to warrant a full Incident Management Team the Communications group leader (COML) takes over and makes changes or additional assignments based on function, location and need. At that point ANY available channel can be used as the COML directs, provided it works, follows the spirit of the rules, and doesn't interrupt other communications. The rule of thumb is that if the troops can talk about saving lives/property and nobody complains (too much) you're golden. Somebody, somewhere needs a license, but those paperwork details can be taken care of later. No one would ever back-date a MOU, would they?

Reality is often different. At least half of today's responder regularly talk to their 'brothers' on 'Channel A' but won't talk to their 'second cousins' directly in times of stress; they have dispatch verbally relay all communications. Agencies hate regional dispatch channels and insist on having their own private proprietary channel 'to reduce radio traffic'. Then they turn around and try to scan twenty channels to keep track of what is going on around them.

Many folks don't want to know what any other channels are for, and can't remember how to change zones and find 'Channel X'. If I brief local PD's, county deputies and state troopers assembled for a large incident perimeter security, and tell them that VTAC12 will be bridged with 8TAC92D, I'm going to see a lot of blank stares and have to show most where to find the right channel on their radio (provided it is even programmed).

As far as collecting orders for a McDonald's run on an unused TAC channel, more power to them. At least they know how to find it in the radio and are validating that it works. If they can find it to order lunch, they can also find it after a tornado strikes.
 
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johnmoe1

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Many folks don't want to know what any other channels are for, and can't remember how to change zones and find 'Channel X'. If I brief local PD's, county deputies and state troopers assembled for a large incident perimeter security, and tell them that VTAC12 will be bridged with 8TAC92D, I'm going to see a lot of blank stares and have to show most where to find the right channel on their radio (provided it is even programmed).

Since this is in the MN Forums...

While I don't believe VTAC12 or 8TAC92D are commonly used in MN, the "local PD's, county deputies and state troopers" thing happens every day in MN. There are a bunch of tac talkgroups that are commonly used. There are statewide standards regarding which talkgroups must be programmed into radios. It really doesn't seem to be much of a problem (occasionally for some more unusual ones you will hear someone say "Zone C talkgroup 8 on your portable" or something).

The report linked two messages back is really pretty interesting.
 

jeatock

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Minnesota TICP for overall governance policy: https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ecn/pr...tate Communications Interoperability Plan.pdf

The "Minnesota Communications Field Operations Guide (MNFOG V1.8)" would be the technical standard and one stop shopping place for links and info. Query Google for " dps.mn.gov mnfog 1.8 " It's there.

Minneapolis is one of the 25 major metro's with its own regional plan. I didn't look for it but it's probably out there.

Don't be surprised to find conflicting standards. I know that Illinois has several of them in the same document.

All of these items are in the public domain and found through Google. Operational policy for any one dispatch center is likely not available.


Daryl Jones is right on. The ARMER crash during the I-35 incident is the poster child for wide area trunking failures. You can't blame the dog catcher all the way up in in Hallock for crashing ARMER, but in reality he and others like him listening to incident traffic did just that. A lot of new software came out afterwards, and most statewide system policies still warn off-site users not to get nosy and tie up talkgroups by forcing incident traffic to distant sites and overloading the system. Illinois and Missouri statewide systems both 'require' out of district travelers to switch to a statewide calling channel so their radio doesn't force the system to haul all of the routine north-east traffic into the south-west part of the state. Hopefully ARMER does this also.

Sysadmins can set geographical limits, but they don't always, and interoperable talkgroups by necessity cover a very wide area or go statewide. Software still has limitations. Getting a Sysadmin to change geo-policy at 2AM or on a Sunday doesn't happen as quickly as the methyl-ethyl-death from a train wreck will spread.

Police tactical ops require wider area coverage because each officer's backup is blocks or miles away. Us dumb fire types show up in herds and like old fashioned analog simplex because we know Murphy's Law is still in effect. I may have a cheap portable with a broken antenna and a half-dead battery but I can still talk fifty yards to my guys on the wet end of the hose without betting lives on a trunking controller thirty miles away.
 

ofd8001

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While I don't believe VTAC12 or 8TAC92D are commonly used in MN.

VTACxx and 8TACxxx frequencies are designed to be Nationwide interoperability frequencies. That is allow communications for "outside" responders who are not users of the radio system. An example would be responders from Wisconsin going to a real big incident incident in Minnesota.

The philosophy is that all responders have these VTAC and 8TAC frequencies programmed in their radios.

I've seen them used a couple of times when agencies from Kentucky and Indiana were dealing with a fire on a bridge linking the two states.

As noted above, it is unlikely to see a Minnesota user talking to another Minnesota user on an 8TAC channel (unless chit-chatting). It would be like driving a horse and buggy when there is a Cadillac available.
 

jeatock

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The rule: Any of the national interop channels may be used at any incident where two or more different agencies are working, or for training. Period. There is no other requirement, including interstate or 'significant sized' operations. If the incident gets an IMT and the COML says to do it, it is a done deal.

That applies to Minnesota, Illinois, Maine and California.

Common examples:

Annual Mississippi River flooding- Each 4 or 5 mile 'reach' of the river has a 24/7 levee crew with a supervisor. 'Da boss and others use our VHF repeated system to talk to command. VTAC's are used for comms within the reach, assigned 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 etc so there is a ten or fifteen mile space between portables on the same channel. Those conversations don't need to be repeated for fifty miles. Anyone who comes to help (literally hundreds of volunteers) is probably good to go without re-programming radios or having to be assigned a special radio. The 'Cadillac' P25 800 trunking portables are worthless in Farmer Brown's bulldozer and dump truck because all they transmit is engine noise. Analog works fine.

Search and rescue- deer hunters, kids and Alzheimer's adults get lost. S&R ground teams come from a ten county area (fifty miles) to help out us locals. We have our own transportable VTAC repeaters using the VTAC11-14 as a repeater pair for command (that is in NIFOG V1.5 as VTAC36), and we use VTAC 12-13 for intra group comms if it is mixed local volunteers and S&R. MABAS color fireground channels are used as well. SRT special channels are seldom used because everyone doesn't already have them. By the time an ITECS unit shows up with all of its bells and whistles it's all over. (If an ITECS unit does go live the radios they hand out will be VTAC/UTAC/8TAC's.)

Fairs, festivals and concerts- same deal.

Tornado mitigation exercises- again the same thing, with nobody from outside the county even showing up. If it turns real and foreigners come, we're already rehearsed and golden.

The Joplin tornado recovery was prime example. The Cadillac system was blown away and analog simplex was the only thing that was commonly available and worked. Our locals who went to help got thanked for NOT having to have our radios reprogrammed, or be given cached radios which were in short supply.
 
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sfd119

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VTACxx and 8TACxxx frequencies are designed to be Nationwide interoperability frequencies. That is allow communications for "outside" responders who are not users of the radio system. An example would be responders from Wisconsin going to a real big incident incident in Minnesota.

Can confirm, from WI and have VTACs in our radios.
 

kb0uxv

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SOAs and the nationals are rarely used for chit chat since the user either can't scan the trunking system, or if multi system scan is enabled, looses priority scan. These are used at events or drills, and are not in status board. Often times to avoid loading the trunkign system, or in areas of poor coverage. F-SOAs commonly find use in firegrounds with command having two radios - 1 on ARMER to wide area, the other on the SOA for operations.

Most regional talkgroups are not specific to discipline. Following change management, the old fire and EMS state tacs are now in a pool of shared STACs (State TAC) that anyone can use. When an event gets large or occurs on a regional border, the state talkgroups are typically used. By ARMER standard, pursuits go to the first available LTAC (Law TAC). Helicopters (medical) are landed on the first available STAC. As stated previously, the dispatch center or COML (COMmunication Leader) dictates assignments.
 

jeatock

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Excellent point to mention and one that I preach weekly, often to deaf ears. One of my favorite sayings is that every white hat comes with two radios: one for each hand.

What is often lost on planners and commanders is that they have two separate communications needs with two totally different sets of technical criteria. The first is the need to communicate off-scene over a wide area. This would include Dispatch, enroute assets and mutual aid, or in the event of a large incident different operational areas and the rest of the 'Great Eight'. 'Command and Control' is best done over a trunked or repeated system, and over the radio in the left hand (or in the hand of an assistant).

What is often forgotten is that on-scene tactical communications typically only need to travel a short distance - yards not miles. Tactical comms also include life and safety critical communications (MAYDAY, Evacuate, 'DUCK!', etc.) and adding extra points of failure (trunking or repeated systems) puts lives at risk. Cadillac trunking systems are viewed as magic, but like the rest of the Black Arts have a history of failing at the worst possible moment. It ain't sexy, new or bleeding edge, but plain old analog simplex is still perfect for tactical comms for dozens of reasons. That would be the radio in the right hand, and the one with priority over everything else.

Look at the NFPA reports and see home many deaths or injuries can be attributed in part to complex communications system failures when agencies try and use them for tactical comms. It's scary.

The downside of low powered plain old analog simplex is that it can't be monitored from a distance (and is an inconvenience for most of this board's members). But for the purposes of incident management it doesn't need to be. The upside is that it's a sure bet that Command's order to evacuate the building of run for cover will travel 100 yards even if the trunking system is having glitches or coverage issues, or a radio has a half-dead battery and a broken antenna.

The Fire folks who show up in herds know this, but the Law folks have a different view, mostly because the Lone Ranger's backup is blocks or miles away, Still, few seem to get the idea that one size does not fit all.

Sorry to say this, but in my view of the perfect world a causal listener shouldn't be able to hear scene tactical comms unless the receiver was pretty close, for the reasons I've stated above. Not because they shouldn't hear them, but because if the agency is relying on a complex system for a simple task the odds of someone not going home at the end of their shift just dropped.
 
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ofd8001

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First I believe that communications planning is more art than science and philosophies can respectfully disagree.

A little background about myself: I was a "white hat wearer" for 30+ years and had a big hand when our local P25 system was designed with respect to fire service communications. I also spent a good deal of time on NFPA technical committees. A lot of time was studying past catastrophes along with best practices for fire service communications.

With that said, I believe the only time simplex communications should be used is when a user is out of range of the system. For example a crew of firefighters entering a sub basement and they get the "Out of Range" tone on their radio. They should back out to where they are in range and report to command that they need to use a simplex channel in that situation.

Here is why: When using a "system channel", there should be a dispatcher in a more sterile environment who is doing nothing but listening to the channel used for the incident. As you know a fire scene can be a very hectic place with lots of distractions which sets the stage for people not hearing a "May Day".

Also when "off" the system channels, the emergency button function on the radio no longer exists. When the emergency button is pressed, the dispatcher sees and hears someone might be in trouble. (Also, the way our radios are programmed, everyone else's radio alerts when the button is pressed.)

One of those bad situations involving communications was in Hackenshack New Jersey where 8 firefighters perished. They called for help on the radio, but no one on the scene heard them. Someone listening to a scanner heard the help call and called the dispatch center. So that's why I think it is so critical to responder safety for someone away from that hectic scene whose sole task is to be monitoring communications.

Another contributing factor to that incident was incidents were being dispatched on the same channel as fireground operations. The current best practice is to assign a separate channel for fireground operations which is different from the dispatch channel. With trunked systems, it is much easier to add more channels.
 

jeatock

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We agree on many points but I respectfully disagree on others.

My background: In my 'day job' I design/build/maintain RoIP infrastructure and IT systems, but am an old tip and ring RF guy from way back. I am also a long-time law officer turned Firefighter and Emergency Manager in predominantly rural environments, with academic credentials in public safety administration, technology, and interpersonal (non-radio) communications.

First I believe that communications planning is more art than science …

I would propose that communications planning is one quarter Art and one quarter Science, with the remainder being ego, politics and Dumb Luck.

With that said, I believe the only time simplex communications should be used is when a user is out of range of the system. For example a crew of firefighters entering a sub basement and they get the "Out of Range" tone on their radio. They should back out to where they are in range and report to command that they need to use a simplex channel in that situation.

Digital trunking radios are a networked computer with an antenna. The present OSI network model has eight layers (seven if you don't include the actual users). That translates to sixteen points of failure for any communication between users to fail. I contend that agency policy adds another layer on each end and brings that to eighteen points of failure, plus the inherent weirdness of radio itself. (I count users and policies twice each because of differing abilities and training levels of users, and interpretation of policies between users and agencies.)

In contrast, 'old fashioned' radios are a simple receiver/transmitter with a speaker/microphone. Analog simplex involves a user, transmitter, antenna, RF, antenna, receiver and user. That is seven points of failure, and still far less by any accounting.

On the top end of the model, policy is often driven by politics and manufacturer campaign donations that do not always make sound sense. The OSI physical layer (radio / RF) is an afterthought. Device selection is often made on the user interface and the bells and whistles the application layer provides the user.

Just below policy are the actual users. Training, complacency and a frequent don't-care attitude when it comes to communications have bitten many responders where it hurts. "It's a black box - push button to talk, let off to listen" is far too common. "It's always worked before so it will now" is not always true. To compound the problem, technical aspects of radio communications are a low mental priority when focused on the mission. To further compound the problem, remembering/figuring out how to change a radio to overcome failure is frequently difficult when things start going south.

Now let's jump to the bottom physical layer, in this case the actual RF signal. On the 'downlink' side for a mobile/portable receiver to operate reliably it really needs at least a -121db signal strength at the front end. If control channel signal is lost the portable will be off-line while searching or trying to re-associate with a new site. If the portable's location is between two or more sites it may spend more time trying to connect and less time being a usable radio. If you have an infrastructure that delivers usable RF everywhere including building interiors, congratulations. You are an exception to the norm. Reality: In the fine print of the builder's contract there is probably a specification that says the system will provide 95% coverage with exceptions for building interiors. Mr. Murphy says that life and safety problems will occur five seconds after the portable moved into a dead zone. That has been documented in multiple death and injury reports.

On the 'uplink' side infrastructure receivers must also have -121db of signal from the mobile/portable present at one of the associated or voting receive sites. Body attenuation, structure attenuation, interference and multipath issues make this uncertain. Toss portable antenna physical condition, water coated equipment and surfaces, and battery problems on top and conditions worsen.

Too many agencies put their budget into the bells and whistles, and next to nothing into properly sited and engineered RF components. They gloss over the simple fact that if the RF link fails, the bells don't ring.

My contention is that simplex operation will likely provide a minimum -109db signal over the hundred yard range required for most incident scene tactical operations. That is sixteen times the minimum required signal strength. Physical problems between the transmitter and receiver are less of an issue; a signal too weak to go from interior to infrastructure is still likely to go to an on scene receiver. None of the middle OSI layers are a factor. It's stupid old fashioned RF – and there is no site selection or association to add down time when seconds matter. You said yourself that simplex is a reliable backup to your trunking system.

If the RF from a portable doesn't receive an immediate confirmation, walk to the engine and pick up the microphone, or have the Engineer repeat it by policy and training. The -109db just turned into a -60db RF level. If interior can't hear that, they're not listening.

One of my hard and fast rules is that you should never require operational folks to switch channels while actively performing operations, and I like to preach that once you switch to a tactical channel you should never have to change. In your comments you mention 'out-of-range' situations. For that to work, first the end user must recognize that the situation exists and until they do their safety is in peril. They may not know until they yell MAYDAY and get 'bonked'. Next they must do something about it, breaking my hard and fast rule. And third, everyone affected must do the same 'something' or folks get lost off the grid. You have just added an unnecessary layer of complexity and confusion.

Any disaster you examine is made up of multiple failures, including the Hackensack incident. NFPA, IAFC, Nationalneariss.org and others detail scores of them, with trunking failures as a frequent significant contributing factor. The I-35 system crash, Detroit’s multiple failures and others are not isolated incidents; system wide failures are common and folks who rely on them are hard pressed to remember what to do when (not if) it happens. Any single component of the OSI model failing puts everyone in the dark. Fail-soft mode is proving to be helpful but not 100% reliable. Here again, Mr. Murphy holds that a system failure, even one lasting only a few minutes, will take place seconds before command calls for an evacuation or major tactical change. The folks on the wet end of the hose will be left in the dark until they realize the system has failed and remember what to do about it.

By not relying on infrastructure for tactical comms from the beginning, you have just cut the possible points of failure in half.

Without wanting to start an analog vs. digital discussion, I will offer this: With known issues considered, digital clarity is consistent out to the limits of the BER. Analog will be scratchy at lower RF levels. Interference originating from outside sources and nearby off-channel transmitters affects both but in different ways. Receiver de-sense is a greater issue with digital formats than with analog. Analog radios will play heterodyne noise, static or garbage, maybe discernible, maybe not, but something will come out. If the digital codec cannot assemble a signal according to its software, it will do nothing. Personally, I would rather hear something that maybe sounded like 'Evacuate' instead of blissful silence.

One of those bad situations involving communications was in Hackenshack New Jersey where 8 firefighters perished. They called for help on the radio, but no one on the scene heard them. Someone listening to a scanner heard the help call and called the dispatch center. So that's why I think it is so critical to responder safety for someone away from that hectic scene whose sole task is to be monitoring communications.

In my view, the primary life and safety oversight is the responsibility of the on scene IC and/or Safety Officer (NFPA-1561), not a remote dispatcher who may or may not be paying attention and has no idea what Bill or Charlie sounds like when they’re stressed. However, I have no disagreement that the more ears, the better provided remote monitoring is acknowledged as a tertiary backup.

An apparatus mounted system to broadcast simplex tactical traffic to a larger audience is simple and inexpensive, and should be standard for all agencies. Talkgroups are cheap and the apparatus configuration can be one-way or two-way. I use an apparatus mounted repeater over analog VHF to extend on scene tactical channel monitoring, but not for actual tactical use.

Also when "off" the system channels, the emergency button function on the radio no longer exists. When the emergency button is pressed, the dispatcher sees and hears someone might be in trouble. (Also, the way our radios are programmed, everyone else's radio alerts when the button is pressed.)

Even though P25 is supposed to be a standard across all platforms, manufacturer ‘enhancements’ have made that a joke. Emergency panic buttons DO work on simplex and the functionality is standard in EIA, MDC, NXDN and P25 formats. Many of the agencies I work with have them enabled on simplex and the reliability is excellent, including display of the radio ID on all units on the scene. If yours do not it is because they are programmed not to.

Another contributing factor to that incident was incidents were being dispatched on the same channel as fireground operations. The current best practice is to assign a separate channel for fireground operations which is different from the dispatch channel. With trunked systems, it is much easier to add more channels.

We are in total agreement that initial notification and wide area command and control should never take place on channels used for life and safety critical communications. Most suggest that any system having over 750 initial notifications a year use a dedicated channel for that purpose alone.

Combining command & control and tactical channels is never a good idea. Traffic priority is never observed. A distant station may not hear on scene portables and will blindly walk over critical traffic without knowing any better. In Illinois (also WI, IN, IA and MO) MABAS provides six licensed standard ten watt analog channels for simplex fireground operations. Harmful interference from other incidents or off-scene transmitters is never an issue, and as a statewide standard mutual aid can immediately be on the right channel.
 

mnrick

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Tonight I heard traffic on "SIU 4" ID: 24117.

What is the "Special Investigative Unit", it that BCA?

I am just wondering who I am listening to there.
 

johnmoe1

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Did you actually hear anything unencrypted?

I see radio ids from Hennepin County, Dakota County, Airport and Rochester PD (and mostly unknown to me), but I can't hear anything because everything is encrypted [DES-OFB with key 8244].
 
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