Washington DC: Firefighter radios did not work in tunnel during Metro smoke incident

ThePhotoGuy · Jan 13, 2015

Sources: Firefighter radios did not work in tunnel during Metro smoke incident
Posted: Jan 13, 2015 3:43 PM EST
By MyFoxDC.com

WASHINGTON - Two sources with knowledge of Monday's smoke incident on Metro tell FOX 5 that firefighter radios did not work inside the smoky tunnel near the L'Enfant Plaza station.

Those sources tell FOX 5 antennas inside tunnel were not working and had not been for several days. Because of that outage, they say firefighters used line of sight communication in the tunnel and cell phones to get information out.

Sources: Firefighter radios did not work in tunnel during Metro - DC News FOX 5 DC WTTG

mlmummert · Jan 13, 2015

What do they have there for communications in the tunnels?

SCPD · Jan 13, 2015

Leaky coax

mlmummert said:
What do they have there for communications in the tunnels?

Often what they use in tunnels is a feedline that radiates out along it's length, with a 50 ohm termination on the end of it. String it thru the tunnel, and you're "supposed" to have good comms.

I believe one brand name is Radiax.

mmckenna · Jan 13, 2015

Radiax is often used, but newer systems use fiber fed modules inside the tunnels.

I'm all for first responders having the right tools for the job, and that includes radio service inside subway tunnels, however some of this is getting ridiculous. It's nearly impossible to get 100% radio coverage everywhere, especially inside subterranean area and dense urban areas. Instead of millions of dollars in taxpayers money being spent on this, maybe they need to spend some money on properly training first responders on how to properly use radio equipment when the system fails. No reason at all why their radios can't be programmed with simplex/talk around channels. A proper incident commander should have been able to realize this. Using a simplex channel, or even a portable tactical repeater to communicate out of the tunnel to the surface could have solved this.

I'm really starting to think some of these news stories are written by radio system vendors.

jim202 · Jan 13, 2015

Philly doesn't have any problems with in their transit tunnels with radio communications. But then again there are people on both the transit company (SEPTA) and the fire department that understand the radio issues and they solved the problem.

Now don't forget this issue is talking about Washington, DC. Don't forget who runs most of what goes on in the DC Metro area.

georged4997 · Jan 14, 2015

Digital Radios ?? Does New York City have any problems in there subway tunnels? Transit Police and Fire ?

gesucks · Jan 14, 2015

georged4997 said:
Digital Radios ?? Does New York City have any problems in there subway tunnels? Transit Police and Fire ?

The problem had nothing to do with digital radios. When a BDA fails, it takes out all comms, analog and digital.

Even worse when it is a BDA not owned or maintained by the FD and the FD notified the owner days before that it failed.

sfd119 · Jan 14, 2015

mmckenna said:
I'm really starting to think some of these news stories are written by radio system vendors.

Probably Ricky Rescue listening to the Comms and sending the "Tip" to News Sources that the radios aren't working. Because, you know, DC FD sucks.

SCPD · Jan 14, 2015

Preaching to the choir

mmckenna said:
... No reason at all why their radios can't be programmed with simplex/talk around channels. A proper incident commander should have been able to realize this. Using a simplex channel, or even a portable tactical repeater to communicate out of the tunnel to the surface could have solved this ...

Seen what you are talking a few times. A firefighter with the antenna buried under turnout can't hear the guy next to him because their radios can't make the repeater site. All fireground comms should be simplex period, and I've said this from time to time for years here on RR.

radioman2001 · Jan 14, 2015

Common practice for comms in tunnels here is to put personnel in line of sight within tunnel with radios to relay the information. That's how FDNY has done it when doing a drill in our tunnels. I don't know what frequency band DC Fire is on but I know from experience VHF doesn't go more than 500 to
1000 ft UHF we have gotten over a mile, but I never tested beyond that. If 800 I would think it would be comparable to UHF.
FDNY does have some neat comms systems including a battery operated box radio that they run out to the underground scene and have hooked up by fiber optic cable back to the field command.

ecps92 · Jan 14, 2015

Routine Testing ??

Boston Fire, is down in the Subways WEEKLY ensuring the network is functional from the various Transit Stations. This occurs EVERY Sunday Morning

Does DC send crews out to test the Subway radio system?

ThePhotoGuy said:
Sources: Firefighter radios did not work in tunnel during Metro smoke incident
Posted: Jan 13, 2015 3:43 PM EST
By MyFoxDC.com

WASHINGTON - Two sources with knowledge of Monday's smoke incident on Metro tell FOX 5 that firefighter radios did not work inside the smoky tunnel near the L'Enfant Plaza station.

Those sources tell FOX 5 antennas inside tunnel were not working and had not been for several days. Because of that outage, they say firefighters used line of sight communication in the tunnel and cell phones to get information out.

Sources: Firefighter radios did not work in tunnel during Metro - DC News FOX 5 DC WTTG

scannerbuff999 · Jan 14, 2015

New York City has a repeater for the subway and and a freq Bart in sf has a underground system that they test they had a big fire in the 80thin the you thing that dc fire would have thought of this before now somebody is not doing there job

scannerbuff999 · Jan 14, 2015

two repeaters for subways for new york it was tested when i was there last year

460.57500 KLO330 RM 127.3 PL FG A14 Subway Repeater 1 FM Fire-Tac
460.62500 KLO330 RM 91.5 PL FG A15 Subway Repeater 2 FM Fire-Tac 460.57500 KLO330 RM 127.3 PL FG A14 Subway Repeater 1 FM Fire-Tac
460.62500 KLO330 RM 91.5 PL FG A15 Subway Repeater 2 FM Fire-Tac

radioman2001 · Jan 14, 2015

We test our base stations and repeaters DAILY. Grand Central and the Park Ave tunnel have no UHF repeaters, they have an old VHF one on CW. They have to pick up portables at Fire Command, and that's why they use the portable box radio. We now have 2 box radios for our own for use,and I am building a third with VHF and UHF trunked capability.

There are plans for FDNY to install new UHF repeaters on the fiber optic system that's being installed. That ensures that FDNY is responsible for their operation and maintenance.

Sounds like in DC someone didn't do their testing to ensure the repeater works, but that shouldn't prevent using simplex. Not that I am privy to any inside info, but sounds more like an operational error than a true radio one.

MrAntiDigital · Jan 14, 2015

D.C. of course also had the problem with their digital radio system during the Navy Yard shooting incident a year or two ago.

But D.C. is apparently NOT the only place to have problems with their digital radio system. I did a search and found many other places having a flow of issues with their own digital radio systems. I think above the norm for other radio systems including high, low or ultrahigh.

In one case it resulted in firefighter deaths. In another case, the city was without radio service for five hours.

So it doesn't appear to be an issue of just being in a subway tunnel. This latest D.C. incident is just one more added in which turned out to be a serious incident. How many other NOT SO SERIOUS incidents have they had ? How many other incidents have gone on that haven't really made the headlines ?

rapidcharger · Jan 14, 2015

mmckenna said:
Radiax is often used, but newer systems use fiber fed modules inside the tunnels.

I'm all for first responders having the right tools for the job, and that includes radio service inside subway tunnels, however some of this is getting ridiculous. It's nearly impossible to get 100% radio coverage everywhere, especially inside subterranean area and dense urban areas. Instead of millions of dollars in taxpayers money being spent on this, maybe they need to spend some money on properly training first responders on how to properly use radio equipment when the system fails. No reason at all why their radios can't be programmed with simplex/talk around channels. A proper incident commander should have been able to realize this. Using a simplex channel, or even a portable tactical repeater to communicate out of the tunnel to the surface could have solved this.

I'm really starting to think some of these news stories are written by radio system vendors.

This.

Wyandotte said:
Seen what you are talking a few times. A firefighter with the antenna buried under turnout can't hear the guy next to him because their radios can't make the repeater site. All fireground comms should be simplex period, and I've said this from time to time for years here on RR.

And This.

MrAntiDigital said:
D.C. of course also had the problem with their digital radio system during the Navy Yard shooting incident a year or two ago.

But D.C. is apparently NOT the only place to have problems with their digital radio system. I did a search and found many other places having a flow of issues with their own digital radio systems. I think above the norm for other radio systems including high, low or ultrahigh.

In one case it resulted in firefighter deaths. In another case, the city was without radio service for five hours.

So it doesn't appear to be an issue of just being in a subway tunnel. This latest D.C. incident is just one more added in which turned out to be a serious incident. How many other NOT SO SERIOUS incidents have they had ? How many other incidents have gone on that haven't really made the headlines ?

And this too.

gesucks · Jan 14, 2015

ecps92 said:
Boston Fire, is down in the Subways WEEKLY ensuring the network is functional from the various Transit Stations. This occurs EVERY Sunday Morning

Does DC send crews out to test the Subway radio system?

Did you even read my prior post?
"The problem had nothing to do with digital radios. When a BDA fails, it takes out all comms, analog and digital.

Even worse when it is a BDA not owned or maintained by the FD and the FD notified the owner days before that it failed."

How do you think they knew it did not work?

gesucks · Jan 14, 2015

MrAntiDigital said:
D.C. of course also had the problem with their digital radio system during the Navy Yard shooting incident a year or two ago.

But D.C. is apparently NOT the only place to have problems with their digital radio system. I did a search and found many other places having a flow of issues with their own digital radio systems. I think above the norm for other radio systems including high, low or ultrahigh.

In one case it resulted in firefighter deaths. In another case, the city was without radio service for five hours.

So it doesn't appear to be an issue of just being in a subway tunnel. This latest D.C. incident is just one more added in which turned out to be a serious incident. How many other NOT SO SERIOUS incidents have they had ? How many other incidents have gone on that haven't really made the headlines ?

We can see by where you stand and what you think of digital by your screen name.
1. The issues on the Navy yard shooting were NOT on the DC system but the Military system. The system that was designed for outdoor mobile coverage did not work inside a secure hardened building. Who woulda thunk?
2. Please reference the NIOSH report or other FACT based report that stated a Firefighter died due to digital radios..."In one case it resulted in firefighter deaths."

KX4KDH · Jan 14, 2015

gesucks said:
The problem had nothing to do with digital radios. When a BDA fails, it takes out all comms, analog and digital.

Even worse when it is a BDA not owned or maintained by the FD and the FD notified the owner days before that it failed.

So switch over to a simplex TAC channel, and have command relay any pertinent info back to dispatch.

Problem solved.

KX4KDH · Jan 14, 2015

Wyandotte said:
Seen what you are talking a few times. A firefighter with the antenna buried under turnout can't hear the guy next to him because their radios can't make the repeater site. All fireground comms should be simplex period, and I've said this from time to time for years here on RR.

Exactly what I was trying to say. I could go on, and on about this......

Washington DC: Firefighter radios did not work in tunnel during Metro smoke incident

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