GMRS or FRS for communicating with the kids?

bdjjp · Jan 31, 2015

Hello to all,

I am an absolute newb here and to radio in general. Here's my story. Was at the flea market one day and talked to a cb/radio guy there and he told me i could get a CB and a couple cheap two way radios from Wal-Mart and be able to communicate with my two young boys while they are on the farm doing chores traveling to grandpas house. So that's what i did. i got a cheap CB radio from Walmart and a couple 2 way radios and as you probably already know it didn't quite work out like the guy said. I'm not saying its not possible, but out of the box it was no dice. So now im doing some research and am discovering about the oh so many different faucets of radio i never knew existed, pretty overwhelming, but exciting as well. What i would like to do is have a base station at my house which is on top of a hill in a small clearing that is surrounded by at least a hundred acres of woods. I need to communicate with my two small boys, 8 & 6, as they do chores, hunt, fish, and travel to grandpas house which is about ten acres away, all through the woods. I would also like in the future, to set up a base station at grandpas as well so that when the boys are on their way to his house we can all communicate. Thanks in advance for your input and look forward to learning a great deal.

westernme963 · Feb 1, 2015

If your not against spending the money a nice gmrs set up might work good for you. Frs would be the easiest, but being limited to 1/2w would hamper your distance. With a descent antenna and base set up you shouldn't have any problem communicating 10+miles. A few handhelds with 5 or 8 watts and a band specific antenna should give you the range to either station.

What kind of linear distance would there be between the 2 base stations. How much are you willing to spend.

I believe a single license would cover you and your immediate family including your father. As long as you intend to be the station owner at both residencies you would be covered.

rapidcharger · Feb 1, 2015

Those radio services are well suited for that. Just keep in mind that the radios are not a toy and other people may be listening and sharing the channel. Gmrs is more flexible but require you to buy a license.

KC8ESL · Feb 1, 2015

Hopefully you can get your money back for all 3 radios you bought. CB operates on 26/27MHz, MURS operates on 151/154MHz, and GMRS/FRS operate in the 462MHz area.

It is plausible to go into a Walmart store and purchase either MURS or FRS bubble pack radios but not a CB radio. It is also plausible to purchase a CB through walmart dot com, but you made it seem as if you had purchased the CB elsewhere, anyways.

Stick to looking at this thread you created, some good info is bound to come by. Personally, I have 2 small boys and we're big on Motorola gear lately (upgraded from Baofeng which I still keep as a backup). Grabbed a few MT2000s from some radio trading sites for under $100 each. Personally, I'm sporting a Moto HT1250 which allows me to do ham radio as well. I've also built a repeater for GMRS which still needs to be tweaked but as is, I get a solid 3 mi radius from handheld coverage. Mobile radios obviously do much better.

bdjjp · Feb 1, 2015

You guys are incredible! I will be sticking around and like the input already. I do not want to spend large sums of money to start. If we learn that a hobby develops out of this then our budget will probably go up a bit. can we leave a handheld unit turned on while on a charging station? What is the difference between mobile and handheld? Line of sight distance between the two base stations is about a half mile-3/4 mile through thick woods and grandpas station would be at a lower elevation than ours. You cannot see his house from ours, especially during spring and summer. Again, thank you in advance

RADIOGUY2002 · Feb 2, 2015

I would suggest a uhf system for gmrs. The house or primary location could consist of a base radio. This can be done by picking up a cheap mobile radio and a power supply from radio shack. Easily obtainable for 55.00 or so with a coupon for the power supply. A simple mag mount antenna will be okay for the time being. You want height no matter how you do it. But if your on the high end in ground elevation that's to your benefit. Cheap portable radios that are efficient can be found on ebay or numerous other places. I would be more then willing to sell you some good radios for your needs for a good price. PM off list for more info on that. I can even walk you threw the design concept if you like. But, things you need to consider is what you want to put into it and how much you want to spend. I travel alot and field deploy a repeater for gmrs, perfectily legal to do as long as you have a license. The license is not all that expensive and will cover you and your family.

jaspence · Feb 2, 2015

FRS or GMRS

What kind of terrain and distance are you looking at? If it is flat farm land with few obstructions, the range of FRS can be be useful. GMRS requires a license and more expensive equipment. Many FRS radios have GMRS frequencies included but lack the quality, power, and battery life of a good GMRS handheld. MURS will work well in an open area but real MURS radios (NOT BAOFENG or similar) are not as readily available and cost more than FRS.

popnokick · Feb 2, 2015

bdjjp said:
You guys are incredible! I will be sticking around and like the input already. I do not want to spend large sums of money to start. If we learn that a hobby develops out of this then our budget will probably go up a bit. can we leave a handheld unit turned on while on a charging station? What is the difference between mobile and handheld? Line of sight distance between the two base stations is about a half mile-3/4 mile through thick woods and grandpas station would be at a lower elevation than ours. You cannot see his house from ours, especially during spring and summer. Again, thank you in advance

Whether you can leave a handheld unit turned on while charging varies by handheld. For most of them the answer is yes. In the context of GMRS, the difference between "mobile" and "handheld" is that a mobile radio would be installed in a vehicle, and a handheld radio is a self-contained, portable unit that includes a battery and typically weighs 1 1/2 or less pounds (much less for newer radios). At your stated range of 3/4 mile through woods GMRS is going to serve your needs VERY well. If you can, consider putting up an outdoor antenna on a mast (up to 20 feet above any existing structure, but pick the highest spot) at both your and Grandpa's place and use that with a base unit at each location. The handhelds will easily be able to reach at least one of the base stations at all times.... likely either one all the time. I have a repeater in my garage with a 20 foot mast and a UHF gain antenna and am not on particularly high ground but I get 15-18 miles of coverage on the repeater.

rapidcharger · Feb 2, 2015

popnokick said:
I get 15-18 miles of coverage on the repeater.

Portable coverage? Mobile coverage? Base station coverage?
Pardon me for saying so but that sounds hard to believe for where you are.

popnokick · Feb 2, 2015

To clarify- 15-18 miles mobile. About 1/2 to 3/4 of that with an HT depending on terrain of course. Mountaintop repeaters (mine is not) in the Amateur Radio service at 440 mHz in this area routinely exceed that range by 3-4x. I can hear the output of another GMRS repeater that is about 60 miles east of me in another state on my repeater's receiver. Believe it or not, it happens and is within not only reality but the predictive models rendered by Radio Mobile.

rapidcharger · Feb 2, 2015

popnokick said:
To clarify- 15-18 miles mobile. About 1/2 to 3/4 of that with an HT depending on terrain of course. Mountaintop repeaters (mine is not) in the Amateur Radio service at 440 mHz in this area routinely exceed that range by 3-4x. I can hear the output of another GMRS repeater that is about 60 miles east of me in another state on my repeater's receiver. Believe it or not, it happens and is within not only reality but the predictive models rendered by Radio Mobile.

Right but yours is not. And radio mobile doesn't factor in vegetation or builings.
So delving a little deeper,
1.) when you say you get 9-13.5 miles of portable coverage, is that while you're on a mountaintop? inside? outside?
2.) Is it hilltopping or contiguous coverage?
3.) Is that mileage calculated by a car odometer?

popnokick · Feb 2, 2015

1.) when you say you get 9-13.5 miles of portable coverage, is that while you're on a mountaintop? inside? outside?
2.) Is it hilltopping or contiguous coverage?
That's hilltopping at select locations outdoors, and not a contiguous coverage radius. And I did write, "...depending on terrain of course".
3.) Is that mileage calculated by a car odometer?
Calculated using Google maps "Measure Distance" tool, which is equivalent to radio LoS
Radio Mobile is as good as the data that is put into it. The old GiGo rule applies to Radio Mobile, and you can add factors to account for link budget and path loss due to foliage and buildings. It can be very accurate when actual plots are applied to the predictive model.
I think we are WAY off topic here for the OP, who likely wants to know how to set up GMRS to cover 100 acres of woodland within a one mile range. The most accurate model could be rendered by plotting his and "Grandpa's" location in RMD, along with appropriate info for frequency, power, antenna gain, height, foliage allowance, etc. Given his rough description, I expect that a 20 foot mast and gain antenna on the highest building at each base location, along with good low-loss UHF coax... will provide very satisfactory coverage for his roughly described scenario.

rapidcharger · Feb 2, 2015

popnokick said:
1.) when you say you get 9-13.5 miles of portable coverage, is that while you're on a mountaintop? inside? outside?
2.) Is it hilltopping or contiguous coverage?
That's hilltopping at select locations outdoors, and not a contiguous coverage radius. And I did write, "...depending on terrain of course".
3.) Is that mileage calculated by a car odometer?
Calculated using Google maps "Measure Distance" tool, which is equivalent to radio LoS
Radio Mobile is as good as the data that is put into it. The old GiGo rule applies to Radio Mobile, and you can add factors to account for link budget and path loss due to foliage and buildings. It can be very accurate when actual plots are applied to the predictive model.
I think we are WAY off topic here for the OP, who likely wants to know how to set up GMRS to cover 100 acres of woodland within a one mile range. The most accurate model could be rendered by plotting his and "Grandpa's" location in RMD, along with appropriate info for frequency, power, antenna gain, height, foliage allowance, etc. Given his rough description, I expect that a 20 foot mast and gain antenna on the highest building at each base location, along with good low-loss UHF coax... will provide very satisfactory coverage for his roughly described scenario.

OK well you made a claim that's akin to the 30 miles range promises on the bubble packs so I wanted you to clarify. When most people talk about coverage, they're not talking about having to climb to the top of Mt. Kilimanjaro to get it.

Thank you for providing the additional details required so the OP now knows those results aren't typical.

SCPD · Feb 2, 2015

both options would work. Now there is murs. A few vhf freqs you can use like the frs and gmrs. They make a few models to choose from. Now the legality part on murs it's illegal but majority of people buy a old ht1000 or similiar and throw them on. As for enf by fcc that's up in air whether someone will catch it. If your out in no man's land community or farm or such you won't have issue. In areal where business uses murs interference could get attention. It's not the legit way on murs. But many do it. If you choose vhf murs I'd suggest buying a radio meant for it. If your looking for range using the stock murs radios won't be good as they are about 1.5 to 2 watts. why many just take a old gp or ht and set to 5w. Its illegal though. Your best bet would be gmrs and frs of your looking for range.

Project25_MASTR · Feb 2, 2015

The way the MURS exception was written, it comes off as any Part 90 radio which received it's grant prior to the given dat in 2001 can be used in service as long as it can meet the technical specs (which an HT1000 can). What I think it really means, any licensee who had itinerant channels in the frequencies now occupied by MURS can use existing part 90 equipment that can conform to the tech specs.

MURS equipment seems to be more expensive (and a little more time consuming to track down) compared to GMRS. Either service will most likely work just fine.

Seven-Delta-FortyOne · Feb 2, 2015

Handheld CB radios are nearly worthless. The reason for this is the antenna. A 1/4 wave whip at 27 MHZ is about 4 1/2 feet. Anything smaller, and you're losing a lot of power. A rubber ducky is just not going to work on the HF bands.

I use FRS and GMRS at the ranch. I have trouble going more than a few hundred yards through thick woods on 1/2 watt, but no problem with a mile or even 2 with 5 watts. Bubble pack radios vs a good commercial unit also makes a good deal of difference. The non-detachable antenna that comes on bubble pack radios to make them compliant for FRS use, are just not that great.

Remember, CB, FRS, and MURS are license by rule radio services. (Meaning you must know and follow the rules, but no license is required). GMRS is a licensed radio service.

Delta

rapidcharger · Feb 3, 2015

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:
Handheld CB radios are nearly worthless. The reason for this is the antenna. A 1/4 wave whip at 27 MHZ is about 4 1/2 feet. Anything smaller, and you're losing a lot of power. A rubber ducky is just not going to work on the HF bands.

A long long time ago, I had a couple Maxon CB portables. The duckies had wound up coils inside of them. 4.5' long sounds about right.
Well, they didn't perform like a mobile radio with external antenna but they were far from useless. Especially how I understand the OP wants to use them.

SCPD · Feb 3, 2015

Quarter

Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:
A 1/4 wave whip at 27 MHZ is about 4 1/2 feet.

234/freq=quarter wavelength in feet.

Seven-Delta-FortyOne · Feb 3, 2015

Wyandotte said:
234/freq=quarter wavelength in feet.

You're absolutely right. Late night last night. :laughing: Scary to think I'm a General Class Amateur Radio Operator.

A 1/4 wave whip is actually 8 and 2/3 feet, but several companies make a 4 1/2 foot, 1/4 wave whip, by means of coils. The firefly and firestik antennas are supposed to be very good. I'm planning on installing the firefly as soon as my new 980 ssb gets here.

Delta

Seven-Delta-FortyOne · Feb 3, 2015

rapidcharger said:
A long long time ago, I had a couple Maxon CB portables. The duckies had wound up coils inside of them. 4.5' long sounds about right.
Well, they didn't perform like a mobile radio with external antenna but they were far from useless. Especially how I understand the OP wants to use them.

They made some cool CB's back in the day.

I found an old Magnum, 11 meter, hand-held, that would do SSB. Only SSB hand-held I've ever seen.

I really like CB. Most Amateur Operators tend to look down their noses at it, and compared to what we can do on the HF bands, it's certainly limited, but it's great for people who don't want to get a General Class License.

Delta

GMRS or FRS for communicating with the kids?

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