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P25 Radio with Multiple Systems

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03msc

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Voyager

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He asked if it's possible. I know it's possible to have two systems in separate zones. I think it's possible to have them in separate channels in the same zone as well, but not 100% positive about that.

As msc eluded to, you would need the system admin(s) to program each system in the radio.
 

03msc

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He asked if it's possible. I know it's possible to have two systems in separate zones. I think it's possible to have them in separate channels in the same zone as well, but not 100% positive about that.

As msc eluded to, you would need the system admin(s) to program each system in the radio.

I know, but the OP's key phrase "and have it programmed like a scanner" indicated to me "no authorization" so I figured that would be an important answer first...
 

jhal94

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Yes you can program multiple systems with different talkgroups in the same zone. At least you could for smartnet/smartzone. I assume its the same for APCO25.
 
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N4KVE

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Try this.


Hidden Talkgroup No Affiliate Trunked Scanning - 3600 Baud Analog and Digital Systems and 9600 Baud Astro25 Systems

Instead of taking the approach explained in the first post, you can use "hidden talkgroups" so that the trunking system is not easily accessible. If you use the approach explained in the first post, and do not "hide" the talkgroups from normal access, you run the risk of affiliating if you actually select a talkgroup. This approach keeps the trunking system out of reach, even when the zone containing talkgroup is selected - that is, so long as you do not program the radio buttons for channel up / down. All channels should be accessible only from the 16 position channel selector.

The following approach was developed as a flexible and safe way to monitor a trunked system with an XTS2500 / XTS5000 series radio but can also be used with other Motorola trunking radios as well.

The examples below are for 16 talkgroups since the channel selector has 16 positions, and assume that your radio is limited to 10 talkgroups in a scanlist.

A. Individual Talkgroup Selection Plus Scanning.

1. Create the trunking system.

2. Create a trunking personality with the 16 talkgroups that you want.

3. Create 16 scanlists.

4. Create 16 receive-only conventional personalities, assign a corresponding scanlist to each conventional personality, and set each personality for automatic scan.

5. Create a zone (Z1) with 32 channels.
(a) In the first 16 channels of Z1, enter the 16 conventional personalities and a frequency that you know is unused.
(b) In the second 16 channels (17-32) of Z1, enter the16 talkgroups.

6. Go back to your scanlists and enter 1 talkgroup from 5(b) into each scanlist.

Now, when you select the a channel in Z1, you will be selecting a receive-only channel that is mapped to a corresponding talkgroup. This way you can select specific talkgroups to monitor. Because the talkgroups are in channels 17-32, they are "hidden" from your channel selector. As long as you do not use your keypad to select a higher channel, you are protected from affiliation.

If you want to scan multiple talkgroups, you need to do more. Again, assuming that your radio is limited to 10 talkgroups per scanlist, you would now do the following.

7. Create a new zone (Z2), a 17th conventional personality and a 17th scanlist that is automatically scanned by that personality. Add the 17th conventional personality to Z2. In the 17th scanlist, enter a "bank" of talkgroups that you want to scan (up to 10) selected from channels 17-32 in Z1. If you want to scan the remaining talkgroups or a different combination, create an 18th conventional personality and corresponding 18th scanlist and repeat the above.

B. Scanning Only.

Now, if you only want to scan talkgroups and not be able to select talkgroups, you can follow the instructions in the first post. Just make sure that you don't select the zone that contains the talkgroups or you run the risk of affiliating. Alternatively, you can use a modified version of the "hidden talkgroup" approach outlined above for scanning only.

1. Create the trunking system.

2. Create a trunking personality with the 16 talkgroups that you want.

3. Create a scanlist for each "bank" of talkgroups that you want to scan.

4. Create a receive-only conventional personality for each scanlist, assign a corresponding scanlist to each conventional personality, and set each personality for automatic scan.

5. Create a zone (Z1) with 32 channels.
(a) In the first 16 channels of Z1, enter the conventional personalities that you created and a frequency that you know is unused.
(b) In the second 16 channels (17-32) of Z1, enter the16 talkgroups.

6. Go back to your scanlists and enter the "banks" of talkgroups that you want to scan.

Now, when you select a channel in Z1, you will be selecting a receive-only channel that is mapped to a corresponding "bank" of talkgroups that will automatically be scanned.

C. Sample XTS2500 / XTS5000 Codeplug.

Attached is a demo codeplug for Astro25 Portable radios. This codeplug has a fictitious trunking system and 16 fictitious talkgroups. You do not need to pay attention to anything in the trunking section of the codeplug, other than the single trunking personality that contains the 16 talkgroups. In this example, I am using talkgroups 101 through 116 in this example.

There are 18 conventional receive-only personalities and 18 corresponding scanlists. Each conventional personality is linked to a corresponding scanlist and is set for automatically scanning the scanlist.

There are two zones. The first zone contains 32 channels. The first 16 channels (1-16) contain the first 16 conventional personalities. These channels are accessible by the channel selector switch. The second 16 channels (16-32), which are not accessible by the channel selector switch, contain the 16 trunking talkgroups.

Each scanlist in the first 16 scanlists contains only 1 channel corresponding to one of "hidden" channels 17-32 in the first zone. These channels map to a single corresponding talkgroup.

The second zone contains 2 channels, corresponding to conventional personalities 17 and 18. Those channels are linked to scanlists 17 and 18, respectively. Each of those scanlists contains an arbitrary group or "bank" of 10 channels selected from "hidden" channels 17-32 in the first zone.

Selecting a channel from the first zone will park the radio on the corresponding trunked talkgroup. Selecting a channel from the second zone will scan the "bank" of talkgroups in the scanlist associated with that channel.

Attached Files Attach
 

Voyager

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If you use the approach explained in the first post, and do not "hide" the talkgroups from normal access, you run the risk of affiliating if you actually select a talkgroup.

Affiliation is not a problem if you are using a radio that is authorized for those TGs.

What you are describing is a hack that is of questionable legal standing.
 

N4KVE

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Is it possible to buy a Motorola P25 Radio and have it programed like a scanner but with different systems on different channels.
Doesn't sound like he's an authorized user, so that's why the above method works, to prevent affiliation. He asked how it's done, & was answered.
 

03msc

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I do not have authorization for those systems. I just know sometimes a radio may be better then a scanner.

True. OK, in that case you'd need to make sure you followed moonboots' instructions above to prevent the radio from "affiliating" with the system. Otherwise your radio could be bricked by the system administrators...
 

SCPD

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Try this.


Hidden Talkgroup No Affiliate Trunked Scanning - 3600 Baud Analog and Digital Systems and 9600 Baud Astro25 Systems

Instead of taking the approach explained in the first post, you can use "hidden talkgroups" so that the trunking system is not easily accessible. If you use the approach explained in the first post, and do not "hide" the talkgroups from normal access, you run the risk of affiliating if you actually select a talkgroup. This approach keeps the trunking system out of reach, even when the zone containing talkgroup is selected - that is, so long as you do not program the radio buttons for channel up / down. All channels should be accessible only from the 16 position channel selector.

The following approach was developed as a flexible and safe way to monitor a trunked system with an XTS2500 / XTS5000 series radio but can also be used with other Motorola trunking radios as well.

The examples below are for 16 talkgroups since the channel selector has 16 positions, and assume that your radio is limited to 10 talkgroups in a scanlist.

A. Individual Talkgroup Selection Plus Scanning.

1. Create the trunking system.

2. Create a trunking personality with the 16 talkgroups that you want.

3. Create 16 scanlists.

4. Create 16 receive-only conventional personalities, assign a corresponding scanlist to each conventional personality, and set each personality for automatic scan.

5. Create a zone (Z1) with 32 channels.
(a) In the first 16 channels of Z1, enter the 16 conventional personalities and a frequency that you know is unused.
(b) In the second 16 channels (17-32) of Z1, enter the16 talkgroups.

6. Go back to your scanlists and enter 1 talkgroup from 5(b) into each scanlist.

Now, when you select the a channel in Z1, you will be selecting a receive-only channel that is mapped to a corresponding talkgroup. This way you can select specific talkgroups to monitor. Because the talkgroups are in channels 17-32, they are "hidden" from your channel selector. As long as you do not use your keypad to select a higher channel, you are protected from affiliation.

If you want to scan multiple talkgroups, you need to do more. Again, assuming that your radio is limited to 10 talkgroups per scanlist, you would now do the following.

7. Create a new zone (Z2), a 17th conventional personality and a 17th scanlist that is automatically scanned by that personality. Add the 17th conventional personality to Z2. In the 17th scanlist, enter a "bank" of talkgroups that you want to scan (up to 10) selected from channels 17-32 in Z1. If you want to scan the remaining talkgroups or a different combination, create an 18th conventional personality and corresponding 18th scanlist and repeat the above.

B. Scanning Only.

Now, if you only want to scan talkgroups and not be able to select talkgroups, you can follow the instructions in the first post. Just make sure that you don't select the zone that contains the talkgroups or you run the risk of affiliating. Alternatively, you can use a modified version of the "hidden talkgroup" approach outlined above for scanning only.

1. Create the trunking system.

2. Create a trunking personality with the 16 talkgroups that you want.

3. Create a scanlist for each "bank" of talkgroups that you want to scan.

4. Create a receive-only conventional personality for each scanlist, assign a corresponding scanlist to each conventional personality, and set each personality for automatic scan.

5. Create a zone (Z1) with 32 channels.
(a) In the first 16 channels of Z1, enter the conventional personalities that you created and a frequency that you know is unused.
(b) In the second 16 channels (17-32) of Z1, enter the16 talkgroups.

6. Go back to your scanlists and enter the "banks" of talkgroups that you want to scan.

Now, when you select a channel in Z1, you will be selecting a receive-only channel that is mapped to a corresponding "bank" of talkgroups that will automatically be scanned.

C. Sample XTS2500 / XTS5000 Codeplug.

Attached is a demo codeplug for Astro25 Portable radios. This codeplug has a fictitious trunking system and 16 fictitious talkgroups. You do not need to pay attention to anything in the trunking section of the codeplug, other than the single trunking personality that contains the 16 talkgroups. In this example, I am using talkgroups 101 through 116 in this example.

There are 18 conventional receive-only personalities and 18 corresponding scanlists. Each conventional personality is linked to a corresponding scanlist and is set for automatically scanning the scanlist.

There are two zones. The first zone contains 32 channels. The first 16 channels (1-16) contain the first 16 conventional personalities. These channels are accessible by the channel selector switch. The second 16 channels (16-32), which are not accessible by the channel selector switch, contain the 16 trunking talkgroups.

Each scanlist in the first 16 scanlists contains only 1 channel corresponding to one of "hidden" channels 17-32 in the first zone. These channels map to a single corresponding talkgroup.

The second zone contains 2 channels, corresponding to conventional personalities 17 and 18. Those channels are linked to scanlists 17 and 18, respectively. Each of those scanlists contains an arbitrary group or "bank" of 10 channels selected from "hidden" channels 17-32 in the first zone.

Selecting a channel from the first zone will park the radio on the corresponding trunked talkgroup. Selecting a channel from the second zone will scan the "bank" of talkgroups in the scanlist associated with that channel.

Attached Files Attach

Problem with method is you need a system key to create the trunking system. I know there is software in the wild that will create one, but were treading on legal issues. There is another way that does not need a system key which I use. Check Youtube for directions, I have to find a link. I did mine a long time ago and have never needed to change anything. It works very well and beats the hell out of any scanner especially if you live in a severe simulcast distortion area. Just be very careful and follow directions to the tee on whatever method you use. I have actually disabled the PTT button and no speaker mics are allowed!
 

DanRollman

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Problem with method is you need a system key to create the trunking system.

I am told that a Relm KNG radio has a true receive-only (non-affiliate) mode, and can be programmed to receive and scan P25 Phase I and Phase II talkgroups without a system key, without affiliating, and without needing any special backdoor method to scan off a conventional frequency or anything. Basically, the Relm KNG can be made to simply become a very high quality and durable scanner, in the truest sense.

Has anyone tried this or heard of it?

These radios are more expensive than a scanner, but a small fraction of the cost of their MOT counterparts (new, at least).
 

SCPD

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Looks around $2,500 for the radio and about $900.00 for the P25 9600 baud trunking and phase II upgrades, This does not include the software or cable. Probably could get a basic APX for that price. There are quite a few options for the radio, encryption, OTAR, etc. Seems like the original radio is pretty stripped of features and you need to pay for the various options.
 

budevans

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Is it possible to buy a Motorola P25 Radio and have it programed like a scanner but with different systems on different channels.

Foe example have https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=7475 system and https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=7995 system on another channel or do I have to buy two radios?

The short answer, yes you can setup a Motorola, Harris, etc.. to monitor/receive a system. That's strictly monitor only and only if you have the correct software and know how to program it. I have friends with Moto radio's that monitor specific TG's on several local P25 systems.

Can you program it to work like a scanner? Not really, they simply are not designed for that.

Last but not least. Transmit on the system, no. The system admin has to create an account for each radio that's on the system. It's like creating a user account on a company's computer servers. All sorts of permissions are required. Once the account is created on the system then the radio can be programmed with the account info to make it work.

Hope this was helpful.
 

blaze

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With some effort and technical skill (see above). you can set it up to do this. But it involves being moralized at by self-righteous message board users. so it's probably not worth it.
 

Thayne

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With some effort and technical skill (see above). you can set it up to do this. But it involves being moralized at by self-righteous message board users. so it's probably not worth it.

True, but after so many years of being moralized and simonized, my skin is so thick by now that even industrial strength massingill would not get thru it :p
 

Forts

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Try this.


Hidden Talkgroup No Affiliate Trunked Scanning - 3600 Baud Analog and Digital Systems and 9600 Baud Astro25 Systems

....might not hurt to give credit to the original author of this guide over @ Communications Support either...
 
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I am pretty much headed in this same direction. The FD's we run with use the county system which does terrible on any type of digital scanner but works flawlessly using the XTS radios. We rely on FD comms for pt updates prior to our arrival so we often listen to them on the scanner but its not worth using a scanner since its a simulcast system.

I found someone on instagram that just told me this if your not interested in the non-affiliation programming as mentioned above but still keeps you out of affiliation. He stated to just put the channels of the system with the talk groups strapped to them.

My problem is figuring out if my county system is 3600 or 9600 baud. Its a Moto Type II Smartzone system which I believe is usually 3600 baud.

I found a xts5000 on ebay from a reliable long time seller that is 3600/9600 baud compliant. I hope thats the case.
 
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