DMR Trunk Track/Decoding

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ausscan

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Is there software avaliable, like Unitrunker, that will allow you to rest one SDR on the control channel and actively track a DMR or NXDN system?

I've looked high and low and for the life of me can't find one - not sure if I am losing my mind on this.
 

natedawg1604

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I was about to post this exact same question. After digging through prior posts, it appears there are no program(s) presently available which allow for real-time voice following of trunked DMR systems (capacity plus or connect plus). It sounds like you need to buy a DMR radio to monitor audio from a trunked DMR system in real-time (and you can't even program it without first extracting system info. from dmrdecode). Is that correct??
 

natedawg1604

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I was about to post this exact same question. After digging through prior posts, it appears there are no program(s) presently available which allow for real-time voice following of trunked DMR systems (capacity plus or connect plus). It sounds like you need to buy a DMR radio to monitor audio from a trunked DMR system in real-time (and you can't even program it without first extracting system info. from dmrdecode). Is that correct??

Uggh, I found a RR post from 2013 indicating you can't use a DMR radio to passively monitor trunked sites, because (just as with p-25 radios) you MUST affiliate in order for the radio to recognize/receive trunking commands. Is that correct? Has anyone been able to use a DMR radio for monitoring a capacity plus or connect plus system passively (i.e. without affiliating)???
 

rrbum

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I too have attempted to research this question. I have basically reached the same conclusions as you. However, it did dawn on me why this subject may not be something for public discussion. I think many of those who pay big bucks to communication outfits enjoy the privacy that these protocols offer. It may very well be a selling point used to make the systems more alluring to many customers. In this digital age we're in it is too easy to just put basic encryption on these systems, and if the providers were to feel that their product was easy to monitor they would do just that.

Just sayin.

Might be best to just experiment on one's own and keep any results to one's self as it stands now.
 

EricCottrell

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Hello,

I monitor several conventional and Capacity Plus systems on my XPR4550 and XPR6550 radios without any problems. You just need the proper parameters and set the radio up for RX Only. It is limited compared to using DSD/DSD+ since you have to specify the talkgroups and can only monitor up to 16 talkgroups on a Capacity Plus system.

One of the reasons a radio tries to affiliate with a Connect Plus site is so the talkgroup the radio is using gets routed to the site. The radio will even affiliate when on RX Only talkgroups. The talkgroups available on Capacity Plus and Linked Capacity Plus sites are statically configured.

Of course if the system uses Encryption or RAS, then it is not possible to monitor the system.

There is software in the pipeline to track DMR and NXDN systems, but nothing has been released yet.

73 Eric
 

natedawg1604

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Hello,

I monitor several conventional and Capacity Plus systems on my XPR4550 and XPR6550 radios without any problems. You just need the proper parameters and set the radio up for RX Only. It is limited compared to using DSD/DSD+ since you have to specify the talkgroups and can only monitor up to 16 talkgroups on a Capacity Plus system.

One of the reasons a radio tries to affiliate with a Connect Plus site is so the talkgroup the radio is using gets routed to the site. The radio will even affiliate when on RX Only talkgroups. The talkgroups available on Capacity Plus and Linked Capacity Plus sites are statically configured.

Of course if the system uses Encryption or RAS, then it is not possible to monitor the system.

There is software in the pipeline to track DMR and NXDN systems, but nothing has been released yet.

73 Eric

Thanks for that clarification! When you say your method is "limited" compared to DSD/DSD+, I thought DSD/DSD+ cannot track Capacity Plus sites in real-time for voice decoding; am I wrong about that?

In my area the vast majority of DMR systems use Capacity Plus with multiple site frequencies; for those systems DSD/DSD+ is quite limited if you can't monitor a single talkgroup for more than 2-10 seconds at a time...
 

natedawg1604

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Hello,

I monitor several conventional and Capacity Plus systems on my XPR4550 and XPR6550 radios without any problems....
73 Eric

So, can you also monitor a Connect Plus system with your XPR radios in RX-only mode? I was under the impressions the two systems were materially different...
 

EricCottrell

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Hello,

Yes, the XPRs will follow Capacity Plus talkgroups, but you have to know the talkgroups and program them in. The limitation is you can only monitor up to 16 talkgroups, whereas dsd/dsd++ will receive whatever talkgroup is active on a channel, but not follow the talkgroups. For conventiona,l dsd/dsd++ will decode whatever is on the frequency, whereas the XPRs need a bunch of parameters (CC, TS, TG). So dsd/dsd++ is good for discovery and the XPR is good for monitoring known systems.

I can not monitor Connect Plus with the XPR because it will try to affiliate on power-on as I mentioned before. Another limitation is the XPR has to have the Connect Plus option. There is a separate Connect Plus CPS used because the option board runs the Connect Plus firmware. I just happen to get a good deal on a XPR with Connect Plus. As an experiment I put in a talkgroup on a local system as RX Only, and used a TX frequency I was licensed for. I noticed the radio transmitted when it found the site, so it was a no-go.

73 Eric
 

natedawg1604

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....

I can not monitor Connect Plus with the XPR because it will try to affiliate on power-on as I mentioned before...

73 Eric

Thanks for the additional info, that is quite helpful. It sounds like you were basically using the XPR's out of the box. Purely hypothetically, if someone toyed with a used XPR and installed a "debug" output (I leave details to your imagination) and then tweaked under the hood a bit, perhaps one could "convince" the radio to change it's ways and stop trying to affiliate in Connect Plus mode. Again, that's a pure hypothetical and it would, er, ONLY involve OEM connectors...:roll:
 

natedawg1604

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Update: Based on the official XPR documentation, troubleshooting charts and diagrams, it sounds like there is a quite a bit of, er, troubleshooting potential...
 

Forts

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You can easily monitor Connect Plus passively. It's been talked about many times on here. Capacity Plus is even easier, just set your talkgroups to RX only. Capacity Plus doesn't have any sort of user authentication, whereas Capacity Plus does (if you attemp to affiliate to the system).
 

DanRollman

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You can easily monitor Connect Plus passively. It's been talked about many times on here. Capacity Plus is even easier, just set your talkgroups to RX only. Capacity Plus doesn't have any sort of user authentication, whereas Capacity Plus does (if you attemp to affiliate to the system).

Yes. Moreover, on smaller DMR trunked systems, you really don't even need a Tier III (trunking) radio because, unlike P25 trunked systems, DMR trunked systems generally sit on the same channel for "replies" that occur within 4-6 seconds of eachother and transmit the talkgroup information on the audio channel without needing to "sit" on the control channel. And there is much less "hopping" from one frequency to the next in most DMR trunked systems.

Thus, I use a cheap-o $200 Connect Systems CS701 radio to monitor a 6-channel VHF public safety Connect+ trunked system and it works fairly well. I didn't say perfect. I sometimes miss up to 1 second of the first transmission of a conversation, but then I hear all replies within 4-6 seconds of each other without missing anything.

Just program all channels in the system, program a Digital RX group with the talkgroups you want to monitor, and program a scan list for all of the channels in the system. Now set a channel to "auto scan". Set a scan delay equal to the usual system channel hang time. Park your CS radio on that channel and it will simply scan all the channels in the trunked system "looking" for the talkgroups you're interested in. When it finds one active, it will sit on that channel and monitor the conversation until 4-6 seconds elapses after the last reply. Then it will move on.

Repeat the above for different talkgroups, if you want. Make a channel called "County Fire" (that auto scans the 6-8 channels used by the system, each with a Digital RX group containing the fire talkgroups). Make a channel called "County Sheriff" (that auto scans the same 6-8 channels used by the system, each with a Digital RX group containing the sheriff talkgroups). And make a channel called "Fire and Sheriff" (that auto scans the same 6-8 channels used by the system, each with a Digital RX group containing both the fire and sheriff talkgroups). And on and on. Once programmed this way, you pick a channel to sit on, and you're sorta "tracking" the system and what you want to hear.

Works fine for $200. Invest more, and track better, if you've got the cash. This is the poor man's MotoTRBO handheld TrunkTracker scanner.

Dan
 

natedawg1604

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You can easily monitor Connect Plus passively. It's been talked about many times on here. Capacity Plus is even easier, just set your talkgroups to RX only. Capacity Plus doesn't have any sort of user authentication, whereas Capacity Plus does (if you attemp to affiliate to the system).

Very interesting. It sounds like these monitoring methods for Connect Plus are (by necessity) "indirect", in so far as they don't appear to directly rely upon connect plus trunking commands. Are you able to monitor passively with an XPR connect plus-compatible radio? Based on the little information I've read, it appears that XPR radios built for Connect Plus automatically issue a host of "non-passive" commands (i.e. affiliation, registration requests etc), and you can't change that without massive modifications of a kind that require VERY substantial programming skills and elaborate equipment. Am I wrong about that???
 

Forts

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You don't need a radio flashed with Con+ (or even the option board for that matter) to passively monitor it as Dan mentioned above. Essentially you are only scanning the system channels conventionally looking for activity on the groups in your RX group list... Sort of similar to the P25 no affiliate scan method used on Astro25 systems.

If you enable the option board (when flashed with Con+) and program the system in, it will attempt to register and the radio (most likely) will be denied. There isn't any way to turn off those affiliation etc requests.
 

natedawg1604

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Well that does it, I have no choice but to buy an XPR radio. Hopefully I can get a good used one on Craigslist or Ebay. It's funny, when I first got my 396XT 1 1/2 years ago, I initially believed (albeit briefly) the numerous reviews on Amazon claiming it had more features than anyone could ever need and/or learn how to use. What a load of C*#$ that was!!!


-Nate
 

SCPD

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I found this older thread by searching... just wanted to give an update.

As Forts mentioned, you can passively monitor a Con+ system with other DMR radios. I have the Vertex EVX-539 and Tytera MD-380. The MD-380 can scan 32 digital Group IDs but it cannot scan multiple lists.

The EVX-539 has only 16 digital Group IDs per scanlist but it has a "group scan" feature, so I can scan an unlimited number of digital Group IDs; however, this is a slow process. The scanning isn't very fast so it takes time. I'm scanning ~100 GroupIDs and this takes about a full minute, so there's a chance of missing conversations. Also, I can customize each Group (or Zone in Motorola terminology) for any number of channels. The radio supports 512 ch so I can configure any number of Groups as long as I have channel space.

EVX-539 Example:

Create 96 unique Group IDs
Add 16 Group IDs to scanlists 1-6 (So that's 16x6 = 96 unique Group IDs per list)
Create 35 frequency channels (this is for the 3 local area sites)
Add 35 channels (so I customize each zone to 35 channels per zone)
Add 35 channels to Group 1 thru Group 6 (35 ch x 6 = 210 ch)
Mark each Group for Group Scan
Program Radio
Enable Group Scan

Radio scans each channel per the mapped scanlist and repeats for each group. Brute force scanning. :)
 
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