High end scanner ? TR-5410 ?

Hello all,

I would to monitor two systems in my area. One is a Motorola Type II SmartZone 850 MHz with Analog and APCO-25 Common Air Interface and the other is Project 25 Phase II 770 MHz with APCO-25 Common Air Interface Exclusive

I have tried scanners such as the Grecom PSR800 and while they work the audio quality is poor and for the most part rather distorted. I am looking for something with better build quality, sound quality and not in the toy category. I have an Icom F3161DT that I use as a portable for amateur radio and it is far superior to the consumer amateur radios.

My questions is what does anyone recommend ? Can it be done by purchasing the radio, software, cable, etc. without having to know someone...who knows someone ? Would the Kenwood TR-5410 be a potential choice ?

I appreciate any suggestions.

Ed W3ETC

I don't own one, but the Kenwood TK-5410D is capable of Phase 2 trunking, but you are much better off getting a Uniden BCD436HP, BCD536HP, or Home Patrol II (2) for your purposes.

The TK-5410 will not do Motorola Type 2 trunking.

Really, stick with a scanner. Commercial radios won't scan as fast as a purpose built scanner, and they won't always allow all channels to be scanned.

Commercial radios have smaller scan lists, too.

Another option is to use SDR# with an inexpensive USB SDR.

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Commercial radio as scanner

If you use a commercial radio for scanning, you must disable any ability to transmit. Setting it up can be difficult if you do not have the proper code plug info, and it is unlikely that the information is given out without real need of the user. It does not have the flexibility of a good scanner, and depending on the make/model, much less capacity for frequencies in each zone or group. Whistler and Uniden both have capable phase 2 scanners that are much easier to set up with a much greater range of receivable frequencies.

From what I understand from a friend of mine who knows about such things is the system administrator of the system(s) you wish to monitor would have to "activate" the radio on the system before you could hear anything.

The Kenwood P25 radios require a system key for each P25 system, and unlike some other manufacturers who's key generator from 1989 still floats around, Kenwood radios are locked up tight against unauthorized subscriber programming. :wink:

That being said, I feel the O/Ps pain about the pathetic and lousy performance of consumer digital scanners on simulcast P25 networks. They are overpriced feces pieces. As the O/P has discovered, LMR radios from companies like Icom (own a 3261DS and 4161DS), Kenwood, and of course Ma Ma blow away any cheap plastic toy ham radios and scanners when it come to performance, build quality and longevity.

That being said, it is possible to use a Motorola trunking radio to passively monitor an unencrypted P25 phase 1 or 2 system.

However it is not for the faint of heart, requires advanced programming skills, and a respect for the fact that if the instructions are not followed correctly, one can inadvertently attempt to register (affiliate) with that network and at least, would commit serious computer crimes, worst case is it could jeopardize a legitimate user on that network's life, and create network disruptions and problems on that public safety radio network the radio is improperly affiliating on.

The method has been documented on this and other site under "no affiliate scan method" but again, this is NOT FOR NOVICE USERS and do not expect anyone to hand hold your on how to do it.

One will also have to obtain an appropriately flashed Motorola trunking subscriber radio in the correct RF band, a current copy of the CPS for that radio, and programming cable, and be very proficient in the use of said programming software. One should also have much experience in programming trunking subscriber radios and understand all that is involved.

Again, it can be done, it works VERY well, but it is for ADVANCED USERS ONLY.

I'd agree with MTS.
If you want to use a commercial radio for analog, Motorola Type 2 and P25, you are really limited to a Motorola brand or some EF Johnson radios.
To the uninitiated, purchasing the right radio can be difficult. Motorola radios have "flashcodes" that control what functions/protocols the radios will do. Purchasing a radio with an incorrect flashcode will result in major disappointment.
Most Motorola programming software can be difficult for the inexperienced. EF Johnson software can be slightly better, but you'll still be dealing with some complex functions.

The key item in MTS's post is the part about having to absolutely make sure you program a radio for this kind of use correctly. Doing it wrong can -really- cause issues for those that are using the radio system. It's difficult to explain without some background, and I really don't have the time to type it all out here, but it's very important to make sure it is done correctly.

I have an old Uniden scanner at work that I used for monitoring our old Type 2 system for many years. The scanner allowed me to monitor the entire system without running into the 16 scan group member issue on the Motorola's. The -real- radios sounded much better, however.

Two things you can do to improve the consumer scanners is to make sure you are using a proper external antenna, and use a high quality external speaker. The proper antenna system will really help with reception. Use the best coax you can afford and get your antenna up as high as you can. Don't cut corners. The external speaker will really improve sound and make a big difference. I'd recommend picking up an old Motorola external mobile speaker. Those things are hard to beat and really improve the sound of most radios.

Thanks all for the responses to my inquiry. My main point was to find an alternative radio to monitor only the local systems rather than use the Uniden BCD436HP or Whistler products. I have tried them and they sound like junk. I wanted a portable unit and don't mind the extra cost. I am not looking for the low cost alternative and will certainly pay for the quality if it exists. Scan speed is also not an issue as there are only a few talk groups that I want to listen too anyway. I just wanted a clear sounding rugged unit to accompany me. As I stated earlier I have been using Icom commercial equipment for amateur radio use and the difference in sound and build quality is night and day.

So it seems that it can be done to obtain a Kenwood/Motorola and get it to monitor the systems although with lots of work and associated warnings which I appreciate.

One would think that there might be a market for a better quality radio rather than the consumer inexpensive versions that exist today but I guess not. Seems like every other market place like cameras, cars, computers, etc. have multiple levels but I guess this marketplace is too limited to support it.

I will have to keep researching and see what is possible.

Thanks again

Ed

W3ETC said:

One would think that there might be a market for a better quality radio rather than the consumer inexpensive versions that exist today but I guess not. Seems like every other market place like cameras, cars, computers, etc. have multiple levels but I guess this marketplace is too limited to support it.

Click to expand...

That pretty much nails it. Very few are willing to spend $3000 for a scanner.

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W3ETC said:

My main point was to find an alternative radio to monitor only the local systems rather than use the Uniden BCD436HP or Whistler products. I have tried them and they sound like junk.

Click to expand...

Amen to that. For the price these inferior, poorly performing units sell for, they completely stink. I cannot believe what some people go through having to get elaborate antennas, or jump through hoops, just to listen to a LOCAL system that has 98 percent body worn portable coverage yet a $600 scanner cannot decode good audio.

I also understand why. There is no "simulcast distortion" as many erroneously believe. What does exist is an inept failure to implement a proper receiver design on part of the manufacturer that works the way it should with the modulation/signal type being intercepted.

W3ETC said:

I just wanted a clear sounding rugged unit to accompany me

Click to expand...

As you have discovered with Icom LMR, there is simply NO COMPARISON to the inferior hobby toy ham radios when it comes to performance, quality of the product itself, durability and longevity.

Once you hear how GOOD P25 can sound on a receiver that was properly designed, you will hate these cheap plastic pieces of crap scanners even more. You will mire at the fact that they sell for hundreds of dollars when, based on their performance level (or lack thereof), cheap construction, and such, you will be saying "these things should not sell for more than $99 max".

W3ETC said:

One would think that there might be a market for a better quality radio rather than the consumer inexpensive versions that exist today but I guess not.

Click to expand...

The few manufacturers (two) aren't interested in real performance or quality, they are interested in turning out a cheap product for maximum profit. Judging by the new versions released, they are just facelifts on the same old, tired 10 year old technology with a few tweaks.

And why should they change? Just look at the masses of suckers lining up to whip out their wallets whenever a new turdlet drops out of the rear of their factory? There is little motivation market wise for the manufacturers to put out a real quality product when they can sell the same stuff they've been selling for a decade and people lap it up like a dog at a bowl of Alpo.

W3ETC said:

Seems like every other market place like cameras, cars, computers, etc. have multiple levels but I guess this marketplace is too limited to support it.

Click to expand...

There does exist a professional level, manufacturers like Icom and AOR build professional grade receiving equipment like the IC-R9000. They also cost as much as a car and aren't intended for the consumer.

But yes, in the end, the market is limited, and will become even more so, as more agencies switch to encrypted systems, and with VoLTE around the bend, LMR use may further decline.

I believe the future will be in SDR based radios and consumer grade cheap plastic scanners will go the way of cassette tapes, VCR's and all the other irrelevant technology of yesteryear. The writing is on the wall.

The current players certainly know this, this is why, IMO, they are in a "pump and dump" mode of selling off as much of their same old, same old they can while there are still folks lined up to waste their money on those things.

Hey, so long as people feel like they are getting what they pay for? But judging from countless threads on this forum including this one, it sure seems that they aren't getting anything but a lighter wallet.

This is precisely why I keep saying that the migration to digital trunking, especially simulcast systems is bad news for people who like to listen for fun. You'd be better off using the $3k you'd spend on a real radio that would probably only be good for a few years anyway until the next migration to something else, to lobby your local representatives to hire a consultant like Darryl Jones who will get you back on a non-computer-driven radio system in no time.