Requesting help w/ finding specific talkgroups in a trunked system

Hi -

I'm getting pretty close to my wits end, so I thought I'd ask for a little help or advice.

I recently purchased a Radio Shack 668 scanner and have been trying to get the thing set up.

I've figured out the basics of programming the 668 via software and the radio itself. The problem is that I can't seem to hear a large subset of talk groups that I should be able to hear.

So far the biggest problem seems to be with hearing anything relating to Phoenix police. At first I was unable to hear anything at all in its parent P25 system (called RWC, or Regional Wireless Cooperative) but I think I've finally sorted that out.

As of this morning I can hear Surprise PD Dispatch, which appears to be part of the same P25 system (RWC) as Phoenix PD.

But still not a peep from Phoenix, nor anything else that's labeled as part of RWC. I've attached screen shots of the my scanner playlist showing Phoenix and Surprise in the same list, and of the RadioReference page that also indicates Phoenix and Surprise are part of the same RWC system.

I've "prioritized" the Phoenix PD talkgroups in my playlist, though that doesn't seem to have addressed the issue. I've also changed the settings for data decode thresholds (dropping it as low as 10), as well as
DSP level adapt (tried 52).

I've also switched to a roof mounted antenna.

Nothing at all seems to make a difference, which suggests to me that I'm missing something else in the programming.

I've attached screen shots showing the playlist with both Surprise and Phoenix PD, as well as the relevant parts of the radioreference listing for my area.

Any advice or suggestions would be very much appreciated!

This may be too simplistic or maybe I missed something in your post - but - what site(s) have you programmed for RWC?

Good question. I thought I'd brought in all sites by default when I added RWC.

Here's a screen shot of the list of sites that show when I highlight the RWC trunked object.

1coin3lives said:

" ... I've attached screen shots showing the playlist with both Surprise and Phoenix PD, as well as the relevant parts of the radioreference listing for my area.

Any advice or suggestions would be very much appreciated!

Click to expand...

I agree with MFD about Sites. Also screen grabs showing RR Database pages won't assist much. More screen grabs of your software screens will help more. Your single grab shows everything in a "big number" (152) Playlist. Doesn't that make it hard to get to for turning on and off with the radio? If this is your only Playlist, why not #1? And, in my opinion only, way too many TGs in a single Playlist. I like to keep that number less than ten.

Your software looks to be more different from EZScan than I thought it would appear. With that in mind, I will still attach screen grabs from my setup.

http://forums.radioreference.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50074&stc=1&d=1428264851

The above grab looks to be similar to your relevant grab. It is under the tab selection "Talkgroup Details". The following is my screen after selecting "Site Details".

http://forums.radioreference.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50075&stc=1&d=1428264927

The #2 Site is a dummy placeholder, so I actually have this programed as a "single site" System with only the CCs and Alternate CCs entered.

Keep in mind that the radio is going to find and monitor the control channel of the best site it receives. There are 17 sites in the system. If you have of them programmed, it's possible that the radio is locking onto a site that isn't carrying Phoenix PD.

In order to have control over which site(s) your radio will try to monitor, you might want to put each site in a separate scanlist by duplicating the system and only enabling one site in each scanlist. That way, you can enable/disable which ever sites you want to monitor (assuming you can receive all of them).

Thanks fellas, this is helpful. To answer some of the questions:

- I included the radioreference screen shots just to demonstrate that there's a match between what's in the database and what made its way into the radio. That's to eliminate bad import/missing data as part of the problem.

- Everything for "law dispatch" is in one play list only because that's how it imported, and frankly I don't know any better. I'm new to setting up this type of scanner (not new to radio in general though, I have an Amateur license)

- The playlist position (152) is also just what the import function does by default. I assume it's not that hard to reassign things to a different playlist though I haven't tried that yet. It's not hard to get to 152 since I've set that as the default elsewhere.

So it sounds like so far the feedback is that I should:

- Have more playlists with fewer sources in each playlist (is there a "preferred" maximum?)
- Have fewer talk groups in each playlist (preferred 10 or fewer)
- Try one site per scan list ("playlist" in the software I have, same thing I think)

Correct?

Phoenix PD is carried on Simulcast A of the RWC. The one new addition is that the Black Mtn precinct (200 A and 200 B) is now being carried on the Thompson Peak IR site.

Surprise PD is carried on Simulcast G and the White Tanks IR site.

The simulcast sites (A, B, C, F, G, H and J) will give you multipath interference issues. You may need a directional antenna on the roof, and you may need to play with the best direction to point it in, in order to receive anything that isn't on one of the IR sites.

Good luck.

John
Peoria

Thanks John, that's helpful.

Is it known where the antennas for each simulcast are placed? I would think that's public information but not sure where it can be referenced.

The omni antenna I have on the roof currently should be able to "see" south mountain (where I'm guessing a lot of valley repeaters and transmitters live), but probably can't see much to the north of me since Camelback mtn is partly in the way.

Try these:

Simulcast A Phoenix PD:
Simulcast A Phoenix FD & City Services:
WPNW554 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
WPWR968 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
WPWS651 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
WPWS758 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
WPWT692 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
WPWX741 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
WPWY575 (PHOENIX, CITY) FCC Callsign Details
WPXE694 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
WPXE706 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details

Chandler Site: WQSH547 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
SkyHarbor site: WPWS651 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
South Moutain High site: WQLJ594 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
North Mountain High site: WQLJ597 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
Far Mountain High site: WQLJ596 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
Sacaton Mountain site: WQLU440 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
Thompson Peak: WQOE346 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
Towers Mountain: WQLV646 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details

Outlet Mall/New River IR: WQSF641 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
Simulcast F Tempe: WQJR969 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
White Tanks Regional Park :WQLJ593 (PHOENIX, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
Simulcast H Scottsdale: WQJU870 (SCOTTSDALE, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details
Simulcast G West Valley: Simulcast G: West Valley Site Details (Regional Wireless Cooperative (RWC))
Quintero IR: not found
Simulcast J Buckeye: WQJG713 (BUCKEYE, TOWN OF) FCC Callsign Details

The closest simulcast location may not be the best site, if there is another one behind it, or close off the side, which may still give you multipath issues, which is why I suggest playing with pointing the antenna in various directions to get the best reception. And best may not be 100%. That's the nature of simulcast systems. You may have to point a directional antenna at a more distant location, or off to the side of a closer location, in order to null another location.

Simulcast A sites and Simulcast B sites are colocated. A carries Phoenix PD and DPW/City services, and B carries Phoenix FD and DPW/City services, along with some other neighboring agencies.

At this time, Simulcast B is offline, due to being transitioned from 800 MHz to 700 MHz, and to P25 Phase II capability. This will take approximately another 2.5 months. All TG's normally carried on Simulcast B are being carried on Simulcast A.
Eventually, Simulcast A and the Outlet Mall/New River IR site will also be transitioned from 800 MHz to 700 MHz with Phase II capability. (So, if you do get it sorted out, then suddenly lose everything from A when it goes offline, changing the frequencies to B should get you back in business, without having to reaim a directional antenna.)
The RWC should be transitioned to Phase II by the end of 2016. You'll need a Phase II capable scanner at that point to get anything on the RWC.

Some Phoenix PD TG's are carried on other simulcasts. 800 and 900 are carried on Simulcast G (West Valley). 400 may be carried on Simulcast C (Chandler). 600 may be carried on Simulcast H (Scottsdale). I don't know if Simulcast F (Tempe) carries any Phoenix PD. And as I said above, 200 is carried on the Thompson Peak IR site.
The IR sites don't have multipath interference issues, and are much easier to hear, but very little law enforcement is carried on them. The interoperability G and Ocean TG's are carried on the IR's. Peoria and Surprise PD are both on the White Tanks site. Peoria is also sometimes carried on Towers Mtn, and possibly Quintero, a gated community on Carefree Highway west of Lake Pleasant. Scottsdale's A2 North is on Thompson Peak. When Simulcast C was being transitioned, 400, as well as Maricopa PD were on South Mtn, and Chandler PD was on Simulcast F (Tempe), but they've all reverted back since then.

Phoenix Fire is carried on Simulcasts C/F/G/H/J full time, as well as normally B. I occassionally hear K-2 on Thompson Peak, and K-6 on Towers Mtn. The The North Mtn, South Mtn, White Tanks, Thompson Peak and Towers Mtn IR's used to carry PFD full time, but haven't since the Superbowl.

BTW, the Far (North) Mountain IR is on Mt Gillen, which is located on the south side of Carefree Highway at 7th Ave.

I hope some of this helps.

John
Peoria

Thanks again for all the feedback so far.

Based on some testing this morning it seems likely that this is a simulcast/multi-path problem.

Last night I created a playlist (scan list to you 1080 users) that was stripped down to just a few items, mostly the Phoenix PD portion of the RWC. Ran the scanner at various places in the house with a rubber ducky antenna, and using the omni on the roof. I got no signals whatsoever.

This morning on the way to work I left the scanner running in the car. 4 or 5 miles away from the house, sure enough I started hearing signals from PPD-200A and PPD-900A talk groups. These are groups I'd never heard before. Leaving the scanner running on my desk at work (3rd story, North Scottsdale) I occasionally heard the PPD-200A talk group.

Driving back home I heard PPD-200A in the car again, and when back at the house got absolutely nothing.

So I suppose the next step is to try putting a 700/800Mhz yagi on the roof?

And can someone riddle me this - how do police reliably receive and transmit around the valley if the simulcast signals cause so much trouble? First responders obviously can't choose the direction of their antennas since they're always mobile. If I have major dead spots, why don't they?

1coin3lives said:

Based on some testing this morning it seems likely that this is a simulcast/multi-path problem.

Click to expand...

Others have had this problem before. I had a post in the thread linked below so it came to mind

http://forums.radioreference.com/ar...um/310066-pro-668-not-receiving-rwc-much.html

1coin3lives said:

And can someone riddle me this - how do police reliably receive and transmit around the valley if the simulcast signals cause so much trouble? First responders obviously can't choose the direction of their antennas since they're always mobile. If I have major dead spots, why don't they?

Click to expand...

Do you still have multiple of the 17 sites programmed in your scanlist? While listening, you can see which site you are currently receiving (disable "Simple Display" and enable "Show Site"). Remember, the radio will decide which of the (up to 17) sites to lock on to. This will certainly change while mobile - sometimes even when you are stationary (particularly on these digital simulcast systems).

As for real users, their subscriber radios are made to handle the digital simulcast - some say they even benefit from the digital simulcast (LSM). Scanners are not (yet) made to handle/take advantage of the same simulcast signals.

The commercial grade radios cost several times more than our $500-600 scanners. They have better circuitry, firmware, actively affiliate with the systems, etc and are designed to handle simulcast systems.
Our passively monitoring scanners just can't do it, and remain affordable for the average hobbyist.

Reprogram your scanner, if you haven't already, to only pick up Simulcast A, and see how that goes for a little while.

If you travel through/to certain precincts, try one of the other simulcasts (or the Thompson Peak IR for 200) that may carry that specific precinct. Try Simulcast H in Scottsdale for 600 for example.

But, don't load up too many sites all at once. With the exception of Thompson Peak (far northeast Scottsdale) that is carrying 200, don't worry about the IR sites: North and South Mtns, White Tanks, Far North Mtn, Anthem/New River, Towers Mtn, or Sacaton Mtn. Sky Harbor's IR doesn't even carry PD or FD at all, and all of the airport TG's are now encrypted anyway, with the possible exception of 1199.

John
Peoria

Thanks again for the feedback.

I'm closer to solving the problem though it's still quite frustrating.

As a test, I've taken these steps:

- Pared my entire contents of memory down to just one trunked system: Simulcast A. I've left only 18 sites in memory, all PPD (for example PPD 800A, PPD 600B).

- Pared down to just one playlist, with 18 items, the same PPD sites from the trunked system.

- Removed all of the conventional channels - not just from the playlist, but from memory "just to be sure"

- Mounted a 10db Yagi on my rooftop, currently pointed towards South Mountain with a pretty decent line of sight (I'm hoping the Yagi will reduce simulcast interference)

With this setup, I have now heard the following stations, though most are of very poor signal quality:

PPD 800A
PPD 500A
PPD 900A
PPD 600B
PPD 700B
PPD 800A

The last one (800A) is the only one that comes in clearly, and only some of the time. The rest sound like the scanner is struggling to decode the signal. I can tell it's speech but I usually can't make out what's being said.

So that's certainly an improvement from not hearing anything at all. My next planned step is to get on the roof and see if pointing the Yagi in other directions helps with reception at all.

In my experience/opinion the RWC TRS reception is highly "signal strength" dependent. Mobile, with a rubber duck, a major improvement can be had by holding the scanner head high as opposed to being on the seat. That said, just for laughs:

1) "Advanced Features" Tab > "Advanced DSP Settings:" > "DSP Level Adapt" > Change 64 (default) to 52.

2) "Trunked Radio Systems" Tab > In the "Trunked Radio Systems" Panel > Highlight the "RWC" (or whatever it is named) TRS > In the Trunked System Site Information" Panel > "Site Details" Tab > Highlight the first row "Site No. 001" > Down at the bottom > "Multi-Site Settings" > "Data Decode Thresholds:" "Low:" Change 88 (default) to 15 > Click on "Apply to all sites" > Check other "Sites" to confirm the changes.

If worse reception, or no change in reception, simply change those settings back to the defaults.

Your Welcome.

rwier said:

In my experience/opinion the RWC TRS reception is highly "signal strength" dependent. Mobile, with a rubber duck, a major improvement can be had by holding the scanner head high as opposed to being on the seat. That said, just for laughs:

1) "Advanced Features" Tab > "Advanced DSP Settings:" > "DSP Level Adapt" > Change 64 (default) to 52.

2) "Trunked Radio Systems" Tab > In the "Trunked Radio Systems" Panel > Highlight the "RWC" (or whatever it is named) TRS > In the Trunked System Site Information" Panel > "Site Details" Tab > Highlight the first row "Site No. 001" > Down at the bottom > "Multi-Site Settings" > "Data Decode Thresholds:" "Low:" Change 88 (default) to 15 > Click on "Apply to all sites" > Check other "Sites" to confirm the changes.

If worse reception, or no change in reception, simply change those settings back to the defaults.

Your Welcome.

Click to expand...

Guessing here that you are referring to some type of software. Is this for some type of Uniden programming software?

tipster67 said:

Guessing here that you are referring to some type of software. Is this for some type of Uniden programming software?

Click to expand...

Rob is referring to settings on GRE type scanners (which includes some Whistler and Radio Shack models). Start at the top of the thread....

troymail said:

Rob is referring to settings on GRE type scanners (which includes some Whistler and Radio Shack models). Start at the top of the thread....

Click to expand...

Yep, and Thanks!! The last 8-10 posts compared to the first few post confused me... Again, sorry and My Bad

I have had my Pro-668 for several weeks now and I find the reception for trunking systems is spotty. I mainly monitor Mesa PD/FD which is on the TOPAZ Regional Wireless Cooperative system and I may only pick up maybe 40-50% of transmissions when I am at home in north central Mesa. When I am near work near Mesa Community College within a few square miles of that location I am picking up to 100% transmissions. I have compared this to my Uniden BC796D and Homepatrol-1 while at home and in my car which monitor TRWC quite well. The Pro-668 picks up conventional frequencies with no problem. I am hoping a firmware update in the near future will correct this problem.