emtLarmy15
Member
Interesting thing showed up on the Worcester County Bid Board...
http://www.co.worcester.md.us/WebData/ArticlePDFs/800-MHz.pdf
http://www.co.worcester.md.us/WebData/ArticlePDFs/800-MHz.pdf
Worcester County
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troymail
Silent Key
While it looks like they have included some possibility for options, the proposal pretty much says:
- a "standalone system" (I read it as "ability to connect to but not part of FiRST")
- willing to accept "alternative" proposals but the proposal must include a standalone proposal
- Harris is the mostly likely vendor unless Motorola is willing to either accept that the County will use Harris radios on their new Motorola system and/or Motorola is willing to swap the County's investment in Harris radios for Motorola equipment
It will also be interesting to see how many new towers are required above and beyond the current 3 (which the proposal indicates already has insufficient coverage for parts of the County on the existing EDCAS system)
The RFP appears to require completion of the transition to the new P25 Phase 2 system by August 31, 2017 - not much time given they are accepting bids until June 22, 2015 and will require time to accept one of them.
As an aside - OC not far behind? http://oceancitymd.gov/pdf/March112015DeptReport.pdf
- a "standalone system" (I read it as "ability to connect to but not part of FiRST")
- willing to accept "alternative" proposals but the proposal must include a standalone proposal
- Harris is the mostly likely vendor unless Motorola is willing to either accept that the County will use Harris radios on their new Motorola system and/or Motorola is willing to swap the County's investment in Harris radios for Motorola equipment
It will also be interesting to see how many new towers are required above and beyond the current 3 (which the proposal indicates already has insufficient coverage for parts of the County on the existing EDCAS system)
The RFP appears to require completion of the transition to the new P25 Phase 2 system by August 31, 2017 - not much time given they are accepting bids until June 22, 2015 and will require time to accept one of them.
As an aside - OC not far behind? http://oceancitymd.gov/pdf/March112015DeptReport.pdf
Last edited:
emtLarmy15
Member
There is diminished coverage in west o and Pocomoke... Far from what I would call problems...
troymail
Silent Key
After thinking a bit, I now remembered that Harris converted the St. Mary's system into P25 in what seemed like record time. They also had an insufficent number of towers to provide solid coverage (at least that's what I recall from reports at the time) but that didn't stop them from cutting (quickly) over a few years ago.
If you read the RFP, the in-building coverage requirements are pretty stringent for portable radios worn at the hip. They are also being smart about what season of the year to verify coverage....
It's interesting that they are asking for some multi band radios - for interoperability I guess.
They also suggest that a proposal could incorporate 700Mz frequencies into the system, however those would have to be provisioned for public safety use only to meet FCC rules (the system will have non-emergency service users as well.) Looking through CAPRAD, the county has some available - as well as OC.
Overall, a very thorough document.
DisasterGuy
Member
Accomack County Fire is VHF and Sheriff is UHF. Worcester County has a full-time patch between the EDACS system and Accomack Fire and Accomack Sheriff however for mutual-aid it only carries you as far south as the 800MHz system service contour.
troymail
Silent Key
Yes it certainly is.... they've covered their bases!
screenersam
I hate motrbro
please don't let them go Mototrbo.
(maybe a dumb question, but is Mototrbo P25 compliant? I'm thinking yes)
(maybe a dumb question, but is Mototrbo P25 compliant? I'm thinking yes)
emtLarmy15
Member
No.
Mototbro is designed for business radio use for the most part, although it could be used for small public safety entities. I notice that those "pushing" TBRO systems have a financial incentive to do so - like own a communications company and have the rights to sell the equipment - and incidentally, do not have the rights to design / sell Moto's P25 public safety line. Hmmm....
NPSTC does not recommend non-P25 compliant systems for public safety users. Good advice, but there will always be some decision makers who will not follow best practices for one reason or another. Luckily, Worcester County has specified P25 Phase 2 capability, which essentially rules out MotoTBRO.
NPSTC does not recommend non-P25 compliant systems for public safety users. Good advice, but there will always be some decision makers who will not follow best practices for one reason or another. Luckily, Worcester County has specified P25 Phase 2 capability, which essentially rules out MotoTBRO.
JRayfield
Member
Not totally true that those "pushing" MOTOTRBO systems for public safety "do not have the rights to design/sell Moto's P25 public safety line".
NO ONE has the "right to design" a Motorola Astro 25 system. These systems are all designed by Motorola factory personnel.
Some Motorola shops are set up as Manufacturer's Representatives (MR's), and such MR's will sometimes handle the 'sale' of a P25 system as a sales rep, but the sale itself is between Motorola and the end user and the system design is done by Motorola. On the other hand, MOTOTRBO is sold through the 'dealer' network, where the products are bought from Motorola and resold (like any other 'store'). MOTOTRBO systems are typically designed by the dealers, sometimes with some help from Motorola, but often not.
Your statement implies that Motorola dealers who have sold MOTOTRBO systems into public safety agencies, would not have done so, if they could have 'sold' Astro 25 systems. While that may be true in some cases, it is not true in all cases. Motorola shops that are also MR's have sold MOTOTRBO systems to smaller, rural public safety agencies. I personally know of several that have done this. Typically, the deciding factor in these cases, as to which type of system would be installed, was based on what the customer could afford or in some cases, where state-wide P25 systems are available, those state-wide systems don't provide enough coverage for the 'local' rural agencies.
Ideally, it would be good if everyone were using the same 'technology' (like everyone has been using FM). But, due to costs, this simply is not possible with P25. Many small rural agencies just can't afford P25 systems (they sure don't have the money from their tax base, and there's never been enough grant money for everyone to move to P25). Yet, many of these agencies are in desperate need of better communications. MOTOTRBO fits in there, well. The DMR technology and the MOTOTRBO equipment is very well suited for public safety use. In fact, Motorola promotes the use of MOTOTRBO for public safety in some areas of the world, where a 'standard' (such as P25 or Tetra) is not in place.
John Rayfield, Jr.
NO ONE has the "right to design" a Motorola Astro 25 system. These systems are all designed by Motorola factory personnel.
Some Motorola shops are set up as Manufacturer's Representatives (MR's), and such MR's will sometimes handle the 'sale' of a P25 system as a sales rep, but the sale itself is between Motorola and the end user and the system design is done by Motorola. On the other hand, MOTOTRBO is sold through the 'dealer' network, where the products are bought from Motorola and resold (like any other 'store'). MOTOTRBO systems are typically designed by the dealers, sometimes with some help from Motorola, but often not.
Your statement implies that Motorola dealers who have sold MOTOTRBO systems into public safety agencies, would not have done so, if they could have 'sold' Astro 25 systems. While that may be true in some cases, it is not true in all cases. Motorola shops that are also MR's have sold MOTOTRBO systems to smaller, rural public safety agencies. I personally know of several that have done this. Typically, the deciding factor in these cases, as to which type of system would be installed, was based on what the customer could afford or in some cases, where state-wide P25 systems are available, those state-wide systems don't provide enough coverage for the 'local' rural agencies.
Ideally, it would be good if everyone were using the same 'technology' (like everyone has been using FM). But, due to costs, this simply is not possible with P25. Many small rural agencies just can't afford P25 systems (they sure don't have the money from their tax base, and there's never been enough grant money for everyone to move to P25). Yet, many of these agencies are in desperate need of better communications. MOTOTRBO fits in there, well. The DMR technology and the MOTOTRBO equipment is very well suited for public safety use. In fact, Motorola promotes the use of MOTOTRBO for public safety in some areas of the world, where a 'standard' (such as P25 or Tetra) is not in place.
John Rayfield, Jr.
Thank you for the clarification. How would it work if a Motorola dealer proposes a MotoTBRO system against a P25 system proposed by Motorola Solutions? Does a Motorola dealer have a license to directly sell the Motorola Solutions Public Safety P25 equipment line outside of an agreement with Motorola Solutions? For this particular system, P25-2 compatibility is required to meet the proposal which basically rules out MotoTBRO, but if an entity does not request P25 technology, how would a situation be handled between a dealer's proposal vs. one by Motorola Solutions? Does Motorola Solutions directly propose MotoTBRO systems, or does it "sell" these systems through its dealer network?
JRayfield
Member
Very good questions.
First, let's define "sell" versus "represent". They are very different from each other, in the context of Motorola.
When a dealer 'sells' a product, that dealer purchases that product from Motorola and then resells it. Motorola is not involved with the end user in any way during this 'sale'. The dealer is 'on his own', so to speak. He does not 'represent' Motorola (the company).
MOTOTRBO products are 'sold' through the dealers.
Motorola also has "Manufacturer's Representatives" (MR's). These are usually Motorola dealers who have been approved by Motorola to 'represent' Motorola (the company) in 'direct sales' between the company and the end users.
P25 systems (Astro 25) are not sold 'through' dealers. They are sold only by Motorola, direct to the end user. Either 'direct' sales people (employees of Motorola) act as the 'representative' between the customer and Motorola, or an MR does the same thing.
The 'direct side' of Motorola (a Motorola direct sales person, for example) can sell MOTOTRBO systems direct to the end user, but that is not the 'normal' way that MOTOTRBO sales are handled. I've never, personally, heard of a MOTOTRBO system being sold 'direct' by Motorola, through either a factory direct sales person or an MR. Even very large MOTOTRBO systems have been sold 'through' dealers.
As to how situations might be handled where a dealer has proposed a MOTOTRBO system to an end user and a factory direct sales person has proposed an Astro 25 system, I really can't comment on that, as it would be nothing more than an opinion and not based on any real 'facts'. But, usually, if an end user can afford Astro 25, then that is what they are probably going to want to purchase and that is probably what they are going to purchase. On the other hand, if they don't have the money for Astro 25, then that's when they will look at MOTOTRBO. This may not always work out this way, but it should be the case most of the time.
So, the public safety agencies that purchase MOTOTRBO usually have done so because they can't afford Astro 25 systems or in some cases, existing Astro 25 systems will not give them the coverage that they must have and their own MOTOTRBO systems will do so. Notice I said "systems". An agency may purchase Astro 25 radios, but that is a very small part of a complete 'system'. The infrastructure itself (repeaters, etc.) can easily cost 3 to 4 times, or more, the cost of the subscriber units (mobiles and portables). Then, there's ongoing maintenance/support on the system. That can easily cost many thousands of dollars per year for this, so the cost 'up front', is 'just the beginning' of the cost of an Astro 25 system.
John Rayfield, Jr.
First, let's define "sell" versus "represent". They are very different from each other, in the context of Motorola.
When a dealer 'sells' a product, that dealer purchases that product from Motorola and then resells it. Motorola is not involved with the end user in any way during this 'sale'. The dealer is 'on his own', so to speak. He does not 'represent' Motorola (the company).
MOTOTRBO products are 'sold' through the dealers.
Motorola also has "Manufacturer's Representatives" (MR's). These are usually Motorola dealers who have been approved by Motorola to 'represent' Motorola (the company) in 'direct sales' between the company and the end users.
P25 systems (Astro 25) are not sold 'through' dealers. They are sold only by Motorola, direct to the end user. Either 'direct' sales people (employees of Motorola) act as the 'representative' between the customer and Motorola, or an MR does the same thing.
The 'direct side' of Motorola (a Motorola direct sales person, for example) can sell MOTOTRBO systems direct to the end user, but that is not the 'normal' way that MOTOTRBO sales are handled. I've never, personally, heard of a MOTOTRBO system being sold 'direct' by Motorola, through either a factory direct sales person or an MR. Even very large MOTOTRBO systems have been sold 'through' dealers.
As to how situations might be handled where a dealer has proposed a MOTOTRBO system to an end user and a factory direct sales person has proposed an Astro 25 system, I really can't comment on that, as it would be nothing more than an opinion and not based on any real 'facts'. But, usually, if an end user can afford Astro 25, then that is what they are probably going to want to purchase and that is probably what they are going to purchase. On the other hand, if they don't have the money for Astro 25, then that's when they will look at MOTOTRBO. This may not always work out this way, but it should be the case most of the time.
So, the public safety agencies that purchase MOTOTRBO usually have done so because they can't afford Astro 25 systems or in some cases, existing Astro 25 systems will not give them the coverage that they must have and their own MOTOTRBO systems will do so. Notice I said "systems". An agency may purchase Astro 25 radios, but that is a very small part of a complete 'system'. The infrastructure itself (repeaters, etc.) can easily cost 3 to 4 times, or more, the cost of the subscriber units (mobiles and portables). Then, there's ongoing maintenance/support on the system. That can easily cost many thousands of dollars per year for this, so the cost 'up front', is 'just the beginning' of the cost of an Astro 25 system.
John Rayfield, Jr.
troymail
Silent Key
I'm betting the vendor as already known...just a formality.
Hmm, IDK. Harris has a lock on that part of the state and doesn't want to lose it, but Motorola wants it baaadd....
emtLarmy15
Member
I can promise no vendor is known... The county is certainly looking for the best bang for its buck. It wouldn't be impossible for Moto, just has to be the right deal...
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