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GMRS vs. Business Radios vs. ? for Vacation Property

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tedpenn

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Hi,

I'm wondering what the best solution would be for this scenario:

My family has a vacation property (lake house) that has very poor cell phone coverage, especially out on the lake. I'd like for us to be able to communicate with each other while out on the lake, and in the local area (lake is about 5 miles of snake-like twists and turns, dam to dam, and is surrounded by the mountains of North Georgia). Here are the options I've been weighing:

1. Amateur Radio: I'm a licensed ham, and there's a repeater in the area, but none of my family is licensed, and it'd be a tough sell to ask them all to get licensed and trained.

2. GMRS: From the GMRS repeater map I've seen, it looks like there's coverage up there, but not sure how great it is, as it's near the outside of the circles drawn. I'm aware that I could get a license that would cover my family, but we often have guests that would not be able to use them legally. I'm also not crazy about having to instruct my family/guests on using the GMRS repeater network callsigns and lingo (including registering each of them to get a callsign, which is required by the group). So I guess I'd be looking at setting up a private repeater if we went that route.

3. Business Radios: So far this seems to be the way to go. However, I'd have to pay for airtime on a local repeater, or build/buy my own (not necessarily out of the question).

Am I missing anything? I'm basically looking for a solution that would allow us to communicate with each other without the hassle of callsign registration, training/radio lingo/on-air protocols, etc. I want to be able to hand a family member or guest an HT and say "here's a radio, call me on channel X if you need anything or get stuck, need help, etc.". Am I headed down the right path looking at business radios? Would I be better off trying to set up a private GMRS repeater at the house?

Thanks for any input you might have. Let me know if I can provide any additional info that might be helpful.

Ted
 

W8UU

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The biggest issue is that you need to actually have a business (or educational center, non-profit organization, church, school, etc.) to obtain a business band license. Check out section 90.35 of the FCC rules for eligibility. Licenses aren't issued for personal family communications, and you might run into this problem with your rent-a-repeater company since they may be sticklers for following those eligibility requirements.

Of course, if you have a business (it could be a sole proprietorship that manages the vacation property) then you can expect to pay somewhere around $500 for frequency coordination and FCC fees. That's a one time cost and, of course, your equipment would cost you too. If you're comfortable with eBay or some of the used two-way Facebook groups, there are deals to be had on used and reconditioned radios. Just a thought.

You could always set up your own GMRS repeater, provided you had a nice hilltop for a tower. Would simplex be an option, or could you put the main radio at the vacation property so you don't need to secure a tower site? There are options ...

Good luck.

Rick, W8UU
 

KK4TTR

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You might get away with Marine VHF. I don't know what the rules are regarding their use on lakes, but the higher power output of marine may make the difference, since you're only talking 5 miles. You also didn't mention what type of vessels will be on the lake, but a mix of mobiles and handhelds might do it.
 

bill4long

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Here's the requirements for the Business/Industrial pool:

90.35 Industrial/Business Pool.
(a) Eligibility. Persons primarily engaged in any of the following activities are eligible to hold authorizations in the Industrial/Business Pool to provide commercial mobile radio service as defined in part 20 of this chapter or to operate stations for transmission of communications necessary to such activities of the licensee:
(1) The operation of a commercial activity;
(2) The operation of educational, philanthropic, or ecclesiastical institutions;
(3) Clergy activities; or
(4) The operation of hospitals, clinics, or medical associations.
(5) Public Safety Pool eligibles are eligible for Industrial/Business Pool spectrum only to The extent that they are engaged in activities listed in paragraphs (a)(1) through (4) of this section. Industrial/Business Pool spectrum many not be utilized for the purposes set forth in § 90.20(a).

One angle would be to create an "educational" entity for yourself. Rather simple to make a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization to make it all "more official" looking. What you would be educating your family and guests about is for you to figure out. Bird watching? Water sport instruction? Hiking safety? Whatever. Put up a repeater or remote base on a hill, and you're in business.

The marine radio angle is possible too if used while on a lake or water-way, or to facilitate such. Are their any marine repeaters in that area? If not, the radios are probably not going to get around all the twists and turns you spoke of.

As for GMRS, as you know, one license covers your family. If you're a stickler about FCC regulations for guests, have your guests get licenses. $85 per family for five years and the license is granted almost instantly on the FCC's website. There is no "lingo" to learn. It's not ham radio. Or else just give your guests radios to use for emergencies only. I wouldn't hesitate to do that. (Legal beagle commentators out there save it for someone else.) Anyway, that's my 2 centavos.
 
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popnokick

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For starters, get the GMRS license, then buy some good (not bubble-pack) GMRS handhelds of at least 4W output. Run some communications tests between your location and someone on a boat in various parts of the lake, along the shoreline, etc. That will give you a fairly inexpensive way of determining what to expect. Remember that if you put a GMRS base radio and antenna 20 feet above an existing structure.... your range will improve due to both the antenna and higher power. That alone might be enough... depends on what you find out with the testing.
And as someone knowledgeable in radio, consider putting up your own GMRS repeater, especially if you have a reasonably high location to work with. I did, and it's not that difficult to do... and is an interesting project. Don't skimp on the duplexer, professional tuning of the duplexer, and good coax with a short a run as possible.
Also... if you want a predictive coverage plot, check out Radio Mobile Deluxe. Free, but with a somewhat steep learning curve. And the accuracy of the info you enter will determine the prediction accuracy of the coverage plot.
 

dsalomon

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You've missed an option...CB. CB radios are relatively cheap and require no license. If you get radios that have SSB capability, then you're getting an effective 12 watts out due to all the power going to the signal vs the carrier. Yes, the channels used by truckers are filled with garbage, but there are lots of channels that not typically used by them. Also, being in a remote location, you're less likely to pick up that garbage anyway. You might find the coverage to be better than 4 watt GMRS. With the additional range, you wouldn't need a repeater. You could pick up 2 radios and do a simplex test under conditions similar to where you'll be using them (or at the actual site). Just a thought...
 

902

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Downsouthsomewhere
Hi,

I'm wondering what the best solution would be for this scenario:

My family has a vacation property (lake house) that has very poor cell phone coverage, especially out on the lake. I'd like for us to be able to communicate with each other while out on the lake, and in the local area (lake is about 5 miles of snake-like twists and turns, dam to dam, and is surrounded by the mountains of North Georgia).

Hi Ted,

I had almost the identical situation when we lived in the Midwest. My wife and I (and later the kids, my wife and I) needed a way to communicate in case there was car trouble, we ran off the road, or whatever. It just wasn't profitable for a company to put a cell site near where my property is and we'd fall off the face of the earth about 7 miles short of the driveway. We tried GMRS and it was "okay" around the property, but didn't give us the range we needed. We also didn't have a local repeater, so our distance was limited to about 5 miles. That didn't take us into the closest town. A repeater on top of the house without a tower didn't really help, as it had the same footprint as a simplex base station.

I had a business band license (to satisfy the argument, I had a sole proprietorship communications contracting enterprise and my family members were my helpers and office staff - all good with 90.35) on VHF and that was a little better. I could get about 15 miles very spotty coverage with a 50 Watt base and 50 Watt mobiles and a 6 dB antenna on top of the house/ 3 dB antennas on the roof of the cars.

Ultimately, my wife got her ham license (she's a Technician and I'm an Extra). Then the kids gradually wanted stuff and I would make a deal with them that I'd buy them (a laptop, iPOD, cellphone, etc.) if they would study and get their licenses - which they reluctantly did. Now I have three Technicians, one General, and two Extras. Two meter simplex worked exactly the same as VHF business band did, except we could get on repeaters there. My wife didn't like the chatter on them, or the fact you had to talk a certain way to fit in (neither one of us likes "hamspeak" or repeater etiquette - she equates it to line dancing - and I don't like talking controllers or beeps). So, we set up a 100 Watt 6 meter base station with a DB201 antenna and 100 Watt mobiles with ball-and-spring antennas. We were able to get almost all of where we usually went within a 6 county area. That did it for us. For what it's worth, low band (ham 6 meters in my case, but you could get a business frequency there, too) works extremely well in your kind of terrain.

We didn't need cellphones while we were out there, and when I was out there last summer, we STILL didn't have good cellular service.

Moral of the story: there is no one solution. Try them out and see what works for you. It took us 13 years to get it right, but we weren't in a rush. In general, UHF (GMRS and 440 ham) will have the least amount of range unless you can put up or get on a repeater. Owning a repeater is like owning an airplane. You just dump money into it. VHF at the same power will do better. Low band, even though equipment is a little harder to find and the antennas are bigger, will out-do them all.
 

krokus

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Is there a radio company that leases access to their system, with coverage in the area? It might be more cost effective to rent access for the times you are at the lake.

Sent via Tapatalk
 

robertmac

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This has been discussed in numerous threads. Interesting that the range coverage includes CB SSB 100 watts. I'm not sure most would be running 100 watts. One caution with CB on 27 mHz, including SSB. The skip conditions will vary from hour to hour, day to day. This makes it highly unreliable. Mind you, solar cycle 24 is now declining, so the interference from skip will be less for the next few years. However, GMRS is virtually exempt from skip conditions. VHF may have some ducting but again much less of a problem than CB. VHF signals may bend around ground services a little better than UHF. Certainly, the mileage stated on the bubble pack UHF radios are grossly excessive. No matter what service, MURS, GMRS, antenna selection and placement are also factors. As a licensed amateur radio operator you should be familiar with most of these factors.
 

popnokick

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To be effective as a handheld, CB needs a REALLY LONG antenna. So long that it no longer can be thought of as "convenient to use / carry". And even after you get the proper length antenna on the CB handheld, it still will not work in cars.... or very well at all for that matter.
 

KB0VWG

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Maybe Murs

You could have a Murs radio as a base and an antenna outside up at a good height.
As I write this it might not be the greatest option but I thought I would throw I would throw it in here.
kb0vwg
wqoi992
 

SCPD

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Out of all the suggestions so far, I'd say going marine radio is the best. Start with running around with handhelds Down the road, if needed, maybe some mobiles in any boats, some mobiles in the cars. Pick a seldom used channel, you'll be good to go.

Second best option is MURS. Same as above, pick up a used VHF mobile, get it programmed to the MURS freqs, put it up as a base at the house, get some handheld's and mobiles, put some mobiles in the cars, etc, yada yada just as above.
You'll have good coverage.

Think the marine route would be cheaper and easier. I'd start with just buying a couple of marine handhelds, and see how they play. If memory serves me right, they go for under $100. Like I said, I'd start with seeing just what you can do with just handhelds. Out on the water's gonna give you some multi-mile coverage. Maybe put up a base if you need to.

I do like the 6 meter option, although I don't think it's most applicable for you. But going six meter mobiles and a base, with a seldom used simplex freq, would be a great way to keep in touch in a wide area. But with all the guest and family involved, everyone needing a ham ticket is out of the question.
 

rapidcharger

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Am I missing anything?

Yes. You left out the simplex base station.

That would enable you to use a portable out in the field to reach the base radio (at the cabin) that has better ears and that radio that has more power and a bigger mouth get out to the portable in the boat. You wouldn't need to go through someone else's repeater and use all the code names and etc that they want you to use.

You should obviously try portables first like Wyandotte suggested and see if you even need to go the base station route.
 

W8UU

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I would be very leery about using Marine radios. First and foremost, you must have a boat in the water that is the focal point of your communications. Talking vehicle to vehicle 10 miles from any navigable waterway is illegal. Second, VHF Marine is usually a 1 watt or 25 watt RF output arrangement. I know the radios are cheaper than commercial equipment but you might not have enough power to cover the area you need.

I really like the 6 meter set up, but with a twist. Go for a low band business channel. Have the coordinator choose something above 46 MHz to avoid being bombarded by skip every day. You'll get some skip on the higher low band channels but not nearly as much as you'd get at 31 or 35 MHz. There is a metric ton of working high power low band radios out there from power companies, state police, conservation, and state highway departments that are switching to 800 MHZ trunking systems. Program your channel and a PL tone (transmit and receive) in every radio and you are set. Portable radios are more expensive and a little harder to track down but I found several good Motorola MT1000 units for about $150 each with working batteries and a charger. Check eBay and Facebook and be patient. A good base antenna will work wonders, as will the ball and spring quarter wave mobile antennas. I know this first hand because we have this exact arrangement in place on a 48 MHz business band channel here at my house. I am the only licensee in the state.

Just my $0.02.

Rick, W8UU
 

Project25_MASTR

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So for boat use you'll need a no ground plane antenna in most cases.

I run GMRS radios at the lake. Got enough metal in my wake tower for a ground plane. The dock has a HT setup to run on shore power with an external antenna. Have a mini base up at the house. The quads (which are usually in Colorado but occasionally come down) have HT mounted in mobile application on external antennas.

It works for me and the family.
 

KB7MIB

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In order to run a marine radio at the house or on the dock, you need a shore station license. In order to get a shore station license, you have to provide a service to boaters (marina, tow, etc.).
Puttting marine radios in your cars isn't legal.
Yes, some people do it. And probably do it for years without being caught or fined. If you want to take that risk, that's your risk to take. Just remember, your Ham license could be jeopardized in the process.

IMO, you should try using MURS. Put a base station up at the lake house. Get a good quality base antenna with gain up as high as the rules allow (65' AGL?) and feed it with good quality coax. Motorola makes some MURS-certified handhelds, and there's a few other makes out there as well.

Otherwise, try GMRS simplex. On the first 7 shared channels, you can run 5 watts ERP into an antenna 25' AGL, IIRC, and guests who can't operate under your GMRS license like family can, can still use FRS-only radios to communicate with your GMRS base on the first 7 channels.

MURS should work better, given: 1) VHF travels better outdoors than UHF, 2) MURS has a greater height limit for an antenna vs GMRS on the 7 shared channels and 3) even with only 2 watts, there's no ERP limit, so you should be able to squeeze out better ERP with a good gain antenna.

GMRS could work better if you used two seperate antennas. One at 25' for transmitting, and a second antenna with greater gain up higher for receiving. You'd either need two seperate radios, or manually switch between the two for transmitting and receiving when using one radio.

John
WPXJ598
Peoria, AZ
 

popnokick

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From 47 CFR - "§ 95.1315 Antenna height restriction.
The highest point of any MURS antenna must no be more than 18.3 meters (60 feet) above the ground or 6.10 meters (20 feet) above the highest point of the structure on which it is mounted."

I did not look it up, but I believe GMRS antenna height is limited to 20 ft above an existing structure and does not include the 60 ft above ground clause. If that is correct then a MURS antenna might legally be higher in some configurations than a GMRS antenna. Regardless, what you are trying for is the greatest legal height above existing terrain / structures.

As I wrote earlier in this thread, run tests with handhelds at same TX power levels (GMRS and MURS) to determine what to expect on VHF (MURS) or UHF (GMRS). Then plan your external antenna and base installation appropriately.
 

Project25_MASTR

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From 47 CFR - "§ 95.1315 Antenna height restriction.
The highest point of any MURS antenna must no be more than 18.3 meters (60 feet) above the ground or 6.10 meters (20 feet) above the highest point of the structure on which it is mounted."

I did not look it up, but I believe GMRS antenna height is limited to 20 ft above an existing structure and does not include the 60 ft above ground clause. If that is correct then a MURS antenna might legally be higher in some configurations than a GMRS antenna. Regardless, what you are trying for is the greatest legal height above existing terrain / structures.

As I wrote earlier in this thread, run tests with handhelds at same TX power levels (GMRS and MURS) to determine what to expect on VHF (MURS) or UHF (GMRS). Then plan your external antenna and base installation appropriately.

§95.51 Antenna height.
(a) Certain antenna structures used in a GMRS system and that are more than 60.96 m (200 ft) in height, or are located near or at a public-use airport must be notified to the FAA and registered with the Commission as required by part 17 of this chapter.

(b) The antenna for a small base station or for a small control station must not be more than 6.1 meters (20 feet) above the ground or above the building or tree on which it is mounted.

[63 FR 68975, Dec. 14, 1998]
 

K5MPH

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Like the others have said you should try out MURS radio I have use to have 2 murs ht radios and used them around town here where I live and they worked out fine I was getting around 2 or 3 miles, of corse you could connect an ht to a out side antenna and get more range ............
 
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