New Jersey's FirstNet "JerseyNet"

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rr60

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If you would like an update on the next generation of PS Communications here is some reading material.
This is presently being deployed along the Route 21 corridor for testing.

Jersey Net

How long before we see Uniden posts "Paul are you going to make a scanner for this".
 

johnls7424

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This is just a program to make communications nationwide for outreach. We already have some conventional VHF/UHF bands like SPEN that are already deployed. It's just one step further to Interoperability. Also it's a step to get everyone who isn't on the same page on that same page. Probably will have mandates for municipalities who still use conventional analog radio to upgrade to 700mhz digital radio and or at least have the means to communicate 700mhz when needed. That will include all fire, Ems/emts.
 

BalunKnot

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If you read the info it says it will be used for data/video transmission. Later on down the road they mention the path toward voice over LTE.
 

rr60

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SOWS & COWS

If you would like an update on the next generation of PS Communications here is some reading material.
This is presently being deployed along the Route 21 corridor for testing.

Jersey Net

How long before we see Uniden posts "Paul are you going to make a scanner for this".

If my memory serves me two natural disasters, the South Jersey derecho event of 2012 and Hurricane Sandy brought widespread PS Communications down for a significant time periods. Part JerseyNet will be portabe sites called Sows and Cows that will be mobile. These will use the 700 MHZ band and be able to be stand alone sites or link radios of different systems.

Read more: Jersey Net | Press

My source indicates a large drill will be held in October that will utilize this equipment. UTAC to be the back-up.
 

kd2pm

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Why wait till October when the Pope will be around in Sept? Camden is just a hop skip and a jump from Philly....I anticipate it will be up and handling traffic before Oct.
 

rr60

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Of course

Why wait till October when the Pope will be around in Sept? Camden is just a hop skip and a jump from Philly....I anticipate it will be up and handling traffic before Oct.

Of course you are correct,heard the same thing.
 

murphdog856

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NJ is starting off with data utilizing Harris modems that do band 13 (i.e. Verizon LTE 700) and band 14 (public safety LTE 700). They will test voice handsets at some point but this will not have the coverage to be a feasible system for voice for a long time.

The main goal of the system besides spending the feds money is to handle high volumes of data. Verizon the main carrier of public safety data in NJ (and other places) and they have been crying up a storm over data use. They tried to impose data limits but got smacked (for now) by the FCC. Verizon had been contacting agencies that had "high" data usage to let them know they would be throttled.

The modems will use FirstNet for data and fall back to Verizon Wireless when there is no FirstNet coverage. The coverage will be good in the Camden County area (I only know of the plans here). There will be gaps in coverage in all counties they roll this into. The sites are SOW's for now and are not permanent towers.

Keeping data off of Verizon will be the only benefit at this time. The modems distributed will only cover partial fleets of public safety vehicles. Agencies can buy extra's at $3000 a piece. In comparison a rugged Verizon LTE modem cost $625. I don't know of any agency that will cough up $3000 for a unit unless it is a high data user like a pole camera.

No you will not be able to monitor it. It will be LTE (FDD) which there is no way I know of decrypting unless you are the NSA. Also expect most agencies to run a VPN tunnel back to their agency over the network.
 

Analogrules

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So are you basically saying that after all that federal money that was spent on the NJICS system and all those new radios for departments who chose to participate such as Newark FD, Union County PD, Elizabeth, etc....will be useless in the future because this NJ First Net system will be replacing everything? As you can probably tell from my question, I am very confused.
 

snapple4th

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This is nothing but a big waste of money, first off with all the money spent on the NJICS which is under the NJ OETS and this project which is under the OHP nobody seems to know where to go. What is the scope of the project and how does it tie into the current communications systems such is the NJICS and UASI system,

Unless were building competing systems for various uses IE NYCDoIT trunk systems of every flavor were going in the same direction as the LA Regional Communications System.

Do you honestly believe counties such as Bergen and Hudson are going to use this when we cannot even consolidate dispatch services?? Plus with lowered costs of fiber and optical wave systems on 4.9Ghz to 24Ghz bands, there will be limited purposes to have full LTE coverage unless your a state agency needing statewide service.
 

murphdog856

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I cannot speak for what the state intends to do with this system. I know this project is a test, hence no permanent towers except for microwave backhauls. The agency I work for is a participant and there is little info being passed on. I know the federal goal is to have nationwide broadband system for public safety. The feds are throwing money around and NJ is glad to accept it.

The NJ goal is for non voice data only at this time. There is no guarantee of coverage or up-time at the moment. Verizon (or any commercial carrier picked by the agency) will be filling in dead spots. This of course is ok for network traffic from IP devices like cameras or an MDT but it is not good for mission critical voice. Most PS users already have data in vehicles and this is a supplemental internet data pipe if you will for agencies to use for their VPN's and video IP traffic. I have seen articles for LTE voice systems being built, but I'm unsure of their success so far. I have not read anything positive yet. If there is money being spent, companies like Motorola and Harris will be pushing products. Stay tuned.

Also the vast amount of equipment is going to non-NJICS users so I don't think they see it as a replacement any time soon.This system is not going to have near the same coverage of NJICS for a long time.

It's long term success depends mostly on money. The feds may throw more money at it if it is successful. Agencies do not have the funds to outfit all cars and trucks unless the subscriber equipment price comes down and there is aid. Also someone has to pay for the ongoing maintenance.

In my opinion this may become a sort of patch work system likes NJICS is. Good coverage up north and not so much down south. NJICS eventual design is supposed to have state wide 95% in street coverage which is not great for public safety. On belt 95% in building coverage is the usual metric for voice. That is why counties and municipalities are still building their own systems. From what I can see other state agencies are looking to build new systems. Feds have their own to. I think NJ will always be a communications mess as well as the rest of the nation.
 
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Analogrules

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Even the NJICS system is a joke because I highly doubt every radio has EVERY channel in the entire system programmed in their radios. Also, there is also another system that works much better already in place called the 800 MHz State Police analog Trunked system, along with interagency channels for communication. Also, we have SPEN and all of those Utac channels. How much more do they want? Also, anything you make digital will have limited range compared to analog. I have spoken to Union County PD officers who tell me their radios are now useless as soon as they reach the outer borders of the county and a lot of dead spots within the county itself. I was told their old analog radios could sometimes work as far down as Monmouth County. It's a no brainer....analog works better and always will due to the simple science of radio waves.
 

APX8000

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N2ZGE...Why would someone need EVERY talk group on the NJICS programmed in their radio ? Union County PD for example has access to the County Hotline for comms with every agency in Union County. They also have Statecom talk groups which they can use to talk to NJSP and others. And they have roam capability onto the West Orange simulcast
in addition to the Union County simulcast. That provides more than county coverage for them. I'm pretty sure they can switch to one of the Statecoms and
affiliate to a south site if they need to talk from Monmouth County, but full time site access on their talk group is a waste of a frequency for that site. As far as coverage, I was talking from Orange County NY to Cape May, NJ on a portable the other day on the NJICS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Analogrules

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All I can say is that several times I hear officers asking dispatch to contact Hillside Fd or contact Elizabeth via landline because they don't have radios that can connect them directly. Not all towns are on NJICS and many never will be. Hence...waste of money. My town, Roselle Park once had direct access to Elizabeth (town next door). Now if they have to be contacted in an emergency, they have to waste time trying to get through by phone. Now that some towns have this capability and many towns don't (most likely due to shrinking budgets), it just doesn't work. I believe this is why they still keep mutual aid patches on 453.050 and 471.2625. Without those conventional patch frequencies, all FD's cannot communicate at major fires. Recently there was a possible kidnapping case involving an ex-husband in Rahway who may have been holding the child in Roselle or Elizabeth. Well, Roselle PD had go keep calling Rahway and Elizabeth (where the car was last seen via landline) because no direct radio comm was available..... Wasting precious time. Between Rahway being encrypted and Elizabeth on their lousy sounding NJICS radios, easy interagency comms were impossible. NOW they want to try out ANOTHER radio system called First Net while the NJ State Police doesn't even have access on all the NJICS sites yet? Ridiculous!!!
 

jaymatt1978

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All of you are reading WAY TOO MUCH INTO THIS NEW NETWORK. It's a data network NOT a VOICE NETWORK. Maybe some VOIP stuff way down the road MAYBE. The way I read the information it basicaally CONNECTS RADIO COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, not replace them! Unlike narrowbanding, ISN'T going to be required by the federal government, it's just another tool in the toolbox. There a great deal of mis information about what this system is designed to do I encourage people to read the fact sheet before commenting any further

http://jerseynet.state.nj.us/documents/firstnet-elected-officials.pdf
 

magic_lantern

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same old same old

I think jaymatt is probably correct, don't think too much about this system, if you are in the "trade" in NJ you will recognize many of the names associated with this and its not much different than when the "black boxes" were the fad and every agency and department was buying them because it was a retired cop now working as the salesman for these companies hawking them to their former associates, kind of like selling girl scout cookies. now instead of black boxes its entire systems. Where will NJ come up with the money to pay for all the tower space that will be required for this, Who will pay for repairs,........etc Many years ago site owners, building managers welcomed public safety into their sites, now its more like "screw you pay me!" the money would be better spent adding to existing infrastructure and exploring better (fairer) competition between vendors.
 

APX8000

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Correct, it is intended to be a DATA network, not voice. I'm trying to remain on topic here regarding FirstNet and not float towards the pros and cons of NJICS...but generally speaking these systems are intended to ENHANCE public safety interop. One of the biggest problems is the fact that certain towns don't join in...their mentality of lack of control and home rule comes to mind. N2ZGE mentioned Roselle Park and Elizabeth....I can sit here and make the argument that as a taxpayer, does a 1.2 sqaure mile borough really need its own PD. One would think Elizabeth could absorb them very easily. That money spent paying PD administrator salary can be better spent on more officers on the street and the money saved can go towards equipment (such as new radios) and training. I could go on and on...
 

kd2pm

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Many agencies use cellular data to push their information back and forth. Others use whats already contained within the P25 data structure. With cellular there is hefty price tag for high speed data. With P25 there is a data speed limitation. NJNET can fill both gaps by providing high speed data for passing video or high res photos and not be a costly issue. It also will be dedicated to first responders so no sharing with normal consumers and that word that Verizon and others like to use "throttling" will not be an issue. Now there will be "roaming" if and when there is a need where NJNET is not yet available, users will have the option to roam to Verizon or AT&T but will be the exception not the norm.
There are no immediate plans today for voLTE but as that technology matures it could be utilized.

As signal-zero and others have noted...NJICS has a totally different purpose and is not and never will be a high speed data network. It could do NCIC lookups and other low speed data applications but thats about it.
 

902

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There's a lot of confusion on this issue not just in NJ, but everywhere. Think of FirstNet as "Public Safety Tel." It's going to look a lot like another 4G cellular carrier that's running LTE. In fact, one of its reps made a statement that it will be an "MVNO" or "mobile virtual network operator" in its earliest implementations. What that means is they will be riding on someone else's network and doing all of the admin work instead of the actual carrier.

What goes on it? Anything. It doesn't care. It's transport. Just like a highway, it doesn't care if there's a truck, bus, or sports car driving on it. Push something in and it comes out on the other side. Assuming adequate bandwidth (and in a fixed block of spectrum that only comes with lots of smaller sites and reuse of spectrum), that could mean voice, data, or video. Add machine-to-machine to that list, too.

How can voice run over data? P25, DMR, NXDN, TETRA, and other formats are nothing more than voice converted to data and then transmitted. The voice can be converted into data, then, instead of using a radio system, it uses a 4G network.

Can it replace existing radio at this moment? No. Unfortunately some politicians were told by whomever that it can. The people who told them that "misrepresented the truth" (lied). There are too many things that need to be worked out and it's not ready for primetime.

Will it ever replace existing radio? That seems to be the plan within the next 10 to 15 years (give or take, depending on where you are in the country). The metropolitan areas go first and the rural areas may never go.

Is this only public safety? My impression is that the selected network operator will be a "public-private partnership" that sells excess capacity on the network for revenue to build out the system. In essence, lower priority private and critical infrastructure (if they don't go with Morgan O'Brien's new venture) will fuel the machine to push the system build-out.

Can an "app" emulate a two-way radio? Yes. The major manufacturers are pumping R&D dollars into products. Some of them look like tablets. Some look like smartphones. Some look like portable radios.

Can an app be reliable enough for life safety? Unknown. The manufacturers are pushing their systems for administrators and non-line positions, but it's all an evolving experiment. What you can see right now is interchange between LTE and existing trunked systems, with no distortion between the LTE user and the trunked user because the LTE device is using the same vocoding algorithm that's in the radio. Still, these things can't do simplex or off-network. Even if you and I are standing next to each other, my radio can't talk to your radio without bouncing vocoded data packets around the network like pinball. Who knows what will happen in "fly-over land" where there isn't enough revenue recoupment expected on investment.

Why is this appealing to agencies? Most of them want to give up having to maintain their own systems that limit them to a given footprint and have to be refreshed every so often. FirstNet and the selected system operator would take care of infrastructure and the subscriber equipment would probably have an 18 month lifecycle (or so the buzz indicates).

Can I monitor this? No. It's RF and you can "see" RF on a spectrum analyzer, and if you have a very expensive piece of test equipment, you could probably "see" data packets flying around, but these will be encapsulated in encryption - whether the user wants to be encrypted or not. Besides, much of it will be non-voice and would be meaningless outside of the application that's supposed to receive it. Much, if not all of it, will be from device to device, meaning it won't be "broadcast." If your device registered in, great. If it didn't, none of that information will be sent to it.

Game over? Not exactly. Some agencies recognize the community relations value of people listening in. They can stream voice traffic which effectively allows you to monitor it. It won't exactly be the same as scanning, but it could be close if the agency is persuaded that there is value to it. The added benefit is the agency can log your IP address and whatever metadata they can get when you're listening. Or, they could have people who are "registered" (or "subscrbed"... subscribed sounds nicer... doesn't matter, same thing) to monitor and lock out the ones who they don't know. That could be neat or scary or both. (On a side note, a hobbyist's most valuable commodity is his or her vote.)

For "responders" this CAN represent a new age of situational awareness. "Augmented reality." Or, it could represent information overload. All that awaits.

This is my understanding of what's going on. It's taken me a while to figure out some of that stuff, but putting it down somewhere helps me understand it, too. If I have anything out of kilter, let me know. I hope it took away some of the confusion - but if you're like me and grew up listening to all of the stuff in NJ that used to be on low band, that probably got replaced by another set of confusion. The only things for sure: 1) this has a lot of momentum; and 2) things will change. How or when (if ever)? I don't know.
 

kd2pm

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902..interesting you bring up PDV and their approach to utilizing the 900 mhz band. Many would think its a reincarnation of Nextels push to talk. Morgan and others would say its not. Will watch to see how that pans out once they get the bandwidth they need in the markets that are interested and who the audience will be that they will cater to. But their technology will be DMR maybe starting out as tier II or perhaps just going to tier III right from the get go. Yet another mode of communications...
 
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