State wide P25, goodbye OpenSky

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KC3AWP

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So I had the opportunity to recently use the OpenSky state system, and in discussing the headaches (and experiencing them first hand) I had a discussion with some folks from Harrisburg (mostly PEMA but there was an admin there who provided extra spare radios) and found out that they are in the planning of going with a state wide P25 system for PSP and other agency's. I still think there existing infrastructure will serve as data. Anyone else hear of this? It seems to go along with individual counties dumping OpenSky and going to P25.
 

SCPD

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Open sky should have been kept data to begin with. Your probably right. I heard from a relative out your way the same thing and he is PSP. as for time Frame who knows it takes time and such. But like nmsp they kept sat comm and the open sky end they use, yes they have it also on data only. Reg comms stayed to the normal standards. Only time they used the sat comm or open sky junk for voice is for dispatch silent runs where mdt computers couldn't receive the sms silent calls.
 

KC3AWP

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I believe it will be a P25 Phase II system. Let's see if it will be encrypted.
We can only hope that they do what ptolemy9200 said...

Open sky should have been kept data to begin with. Your probably right. I heard from a relative out your way the same thing and he is PSP. as for time Frame who knows it takes time and such. But like nmsp they kept sat comm and the open sky end they use, yes they have it also on data only. Reg comms stayed to the normal standards. Only time they used the sat comm or open sky junk for voice is for dispatch silent runs where mdt computers couldn't receive the sms silent calls.
 

HM1529

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First testing is supposed to go live next year in NW PA. Many sites around the state have already been coordinated and licensed. They are still trying to obtain the necessary VHF spectrum in some areas. There was a plan to use 700 or 800 in urban areas as part of a dual band solution. There is an existing thread on this topic.
 

popnokick

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They are still trying to obtain the necessary VHF spectrum in some areas.
What happened to the existing VHF channels / allocations they already have? Is the P25 system going to be on completely NEW VHF allocations? Seems like this would cause delay, expense, and overall waste. Particularly since the existing OpenSky system was so well conceived, budgeted, deployed, and overall operational excellence (NOT!). One of the requirements in the VA STARS system when it was built was for maximum reuse of existing state-allocated frequencies. Seems like common sense unless there is a need to have a parallel VHF analog system that is idle much of the time (as at present). Oh wait... this is PA, not VA...
 

talviar

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Try taking all the VHF freqs available on a site. . . . . . Convert that to say 4 or 5 trunking channels. . . . 8 or 10 VHF channels per site that all have to have a certain channel separation to allow the Transmit combiner to be happy, and not have interference/desense on the receivers. Lots of calculations go into making sure there isn't a problem. All while some of the licensed channels are in use and need to maintain operation (ie the backup VHF PSP channels, DCNR channels for Forestry and Parks, Bunny Cops, Guppie Police, you get the idea. . . . . . .

And the fact that putting Trunking on now requires clear channel on the Control Channel freq, have to factor in a pair that isn't in use within +/- a set number of miles from the site. . . . . . Good luck with that. . . . . . .
 

popnokick

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Didn't realize it was going to be a trunking P25 Phase II system. The trunking part must be in the other thread discussing this.... Didn't see it here.
 

Voyager

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It is trunking, is VHF, and is using many more channels than they used to have (and still do have).
 

HM1529

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Trust me, there is a constant stream of work in the pipeline and multiple options in the works including the licensing of new spectrum, reusing existing frequecnies, utilzing part 22, etc. This is a huge state with a lot of VHF already licensed by other users. Coordination and planning is not a simple process.

You have to remember that even as local jurisdictions move off old VHF channels, if they maintain the FCC license, that spectrum is still theirs and you have to go through a process of obtaining letters of concurrence for potential interference, some of which may not be granted.

This is why license sitters make me crazy. Done using it? Cancel it.
 

HM1529

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I bet the state is very glad they didn't take that advice, as they ended up needing it again.

For PSP, they were never done using it. Yes, their used waned greatly, but they never eliminated it.

I am talking about license holders who have migrated off VHF/UHF onto a TRS, have no VHF/UHF infrastructure remaining, and continue to renew their VHF/UHF licenses effectively blocking other potential users nearby for no apparent reason.
 
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jim202

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For PSP, they were never done using it. Yes, their used waned greatly, but they never eliminated it.

I am talking about license holders who have migrated off VHF/UHF onto a TRS, have no VHF/UHF infrastructure remaining, and continue to renew their VHF/UHF licenses effectively blocking other potential users nearby for no apparent reason.

The sitting on an unused frequency license can be solved. It just takes time and effort.
 

KB7MIB

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I once asked about that several years ago in regards to an agency here in AZ that was holding onto license(s) for their old UHF channels after they went to a trunked system, and the reply I got was along the lines of it costs money to cancel a license, but it was free to perpetually renew them.

I don't know if that is in fact true, but the comment was never corrected to my knowledge.

John
Peoria, AZ
 

Thunderknight

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I once asked about that several years ago in regards to an agency here in AZ that was holding onto license(s) for their old UHF channels after they went to a trunked system, and the reply I got was along the lines of it costs money to cancel a license, but it was free to perpetually renew them.

It costs nothing to cancel a license.

In fact, public safety is exempt from all FCC fees anyway and coordination is not required for a cancellation.
 

Voyager

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I file that in the folder that has the statement "The FCC is not renewing any Low Band Licenses" rumor.
 

W3DMV

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Grr !

Posts regarding the possible new state system have finally
pushed me over the edge. This post will probably end up in the
"Rants" department so will try to tone it down.
We have post after post saying they heard from their uncle, the
guy in a local bar, and other reliable sources that the system
will be "xxxxx". After watching the many state meetings regarding
the subject, I don't think they even know. Remember that there are
still people at state level who were involved in open sky and it
will be extremely difficult to find a good consultant who can
convince them of a good solid system that will work. Political
dissensions almost always win out over good common sense.
I like to look at common sense ideas that provide a possible
solution to the current woes. Adams County is in the process of
constructing their new 800 Mhz trunking system. This system will
cost the county 25-30 million, a huge expenditure for a little county.
The consultant stated it will require 19 sites to provide
the required coverage. In comparison, the state has 4 open sky sites,
with three of them located out in the boonies. It doesn't take a RF
engineer to understand the poor coverage when you view a map of
the sites.
I've had a chance to have breakfast at a local restaurant with a half
dozen local troopers, and have had some interesting discussions
regarding their open sky system. The answer is always the same, "It
works ok when your close to a tower site". Elsewhere, it's a crap shoot !
Many of the veterans tell me the old VHF worked well for their needs
and the new fancy stuff only complicates their operations.
When you look through all the radio licenses the state has, it becomes
bewildering. There are many systems, sites, and frequencies that are
collecting dust. Someone had a idea that never materialized into a final
workable system. The pile of money down the drain must be staggering !
One of the notable exceptions is the 700 Mhz sites utilized for aircraft
and a few misc state users. Last time I looked, there were 3 PSP choppers
and several fixed wing units. Locally it's impossible to get assistance
in this county from PSP air units. When air support is required, it's
provided by The Maryland State Police with trooper 3 stationed at
Frederick. They always respond for police assistance, med runs, and
search operations.
Inter-op here is comprised of pulling you cruiser into the middle of
the intersection, rolling down the window and shouting to the local
your desired information. We have frequencies available to both parties
but in my years of scanning, have never witnessed any activity.
Most over night shifts here comprise of 2 cars, and on rare occasions, a
third. It sure doesn't require a billion dollar system to provide radio
communications for that type of operation.
Until someone figures how to remove the "Were better than you" idea,
from the state system chances of success are nil to none. Perhaps we
could lock this thread in a time capsule box, to automatically open
in thirty years, and our kids can get a look at what was, wasn't and
get a good chuckle. Microsoft, google, and Apple should have something
on the market in a few years that will solve this mess........
Grr !
 

rrbum

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In comparison, the state has 4 open sky sites,
with three of them located out in the boonies. It doesn't take a RF
engineer to understand the poor coverage when you view a map of
the sites.

Um, alrighty then.
 

ocguard

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While visiting the Pine Creek Gorge (which, by the way is far less impressive that advertised), we noted low profile RF antenna sites on 25' wooden telephone poles every 3-4 miles. LITERALLY that often. I had to stop and see what they were, so we peeked at one at the visitor's center/scenic overlook entrance. It was a Tyco OpenSky cell site. There had to be 25 of them within the gorge between Jersey Shore and Wellsboro. That's a lot of infrastructure for something that doesn't work.
 
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