New to radio, Commerical Usage Question, 18-24MHZ

interestedinradio · Jul 6, 2015

Hi, I am new to radio and have a very specific question. I've tried reading some of the forums but could not find answer. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

For commercial use, I'd like to have access to 18-24MHZ using 500Hz to 3000Hz. My business idea has nothing to do with utilities or oil and gas where I see some commercial entities operating in this bandwidth. This is startup idea around data analysis in financial markets.

Is it possible for me to somehow get permission to use this bandwidth from a reseller or some easy and relatively inexpensive way to apply myself?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I am naive in this world but very interested to see if this communication can be used for my eventual for-profit research.

Thanks.

mikewazowski · Jul 6, 2015

Moved to Industry Discussion.

mmckenna · Jul 6, 2015

Where are you located? Telling us which country you are in will really help us answer your question. Rules vary from country to country.

Also, being a bit more descriptive about what you are trying to do will help also. Are you looking for long range communications, building penetration, high speed data, voice????

interestedinradio · Jul 6, 2015

Thank you so much for the quick reply. This is for long range communication between US and most likely to begin, Sao Paulo, Brazil. We then may want to do long range communication between US and Japan. We are based in the US. This is for High Speed data but we know ideal is 18-24MHZ.

interestedinradio · Jul 7, 2015

Hi MMckenna,
Let me know if there is a way to message you more information if appropriate. I am new to forum board so may have this feature turned off of private messaging. I'd love to get pointed in right direction if what I am exploring is possible to do.

Thanks again.

interestedinradio · Jul 7, 2015

One more comment I wanted to make is that while operating in 18-24 MHZ is ideal, I am also told 3-18 MHZ could work well for communicating with Asia and Europe because they propagate at night. But again, I am new to all of this and just trying to figure out if there is a viable solution.

mikepdx · Jul 7, 2015

#1 - An HF solution wont be inexpensive.
With that out of the way...

Why do you need a radio solution vs high speed data over the web?
Are you needing to contact mobile units via HF or fixed-to-fixed only?

If there's no need to contact mobiles,
data via the web makes more sense.

nd5y · Jul 7, 2015

How do you know 18-24 MHz is ideal? That sounds like somebody fed you a load of BS.

The "ideal" frequency between the US and Brazil or Japan will change depending the MUF, LUF and FOT which varies with the time of day, the time the year, the point in the 11 year solar cycle and the location of the stations you wish to communicate with.

If you are expecting to be able to get a frequency with no other users on it that will allow you to send high speed data to other continents at all times then you need to think again.

interestedinradio · Jul 7, 2015

this is a scientific study and the internet has jjitter (transmission time varies wildly) - we need quasi-instantaneous (speed of light) response.

with transmission over the air, we can discount exactly D/c where D=distance and c=speed of light. while over the internet we have delta = 53 +- 10 ms. with internet we are observing 10% variation on transmission times and that taints the results.

But at this stage...I want to attack the business question. How can I very inexpensively (ideally) get access to this range in a commercial form. My understanding is since we are only receiving and passively listening at places across globe we do not need a license so I am asking how to do this from US. Any advice, I'd welcome greatly.

interestedinradio · Jul 7, 2015

nd5y said:
How do you know 18-24 MHz is ideal? That sounds like somebody fed you a load of BS.

The "ideal" frequency between the US and Brazil or Japan will change depending the MUF, LUF and FOT which varies with the time of day, the time the year, the point in the 11 year solar cycle and the location of the stations you wish to communicate with.

If you are expecting to be able to get a frequency with no other users on it that will allow you to send high speed data to other continents at all times then you need to think again.

Thanks ND5y, you may be absolutely right so appreciate the insight on whether the range is correct. And we may need to adjust. But I am new to this industry and at a higher level want to understand how do I get to use say 3000HZ on 3-30 MHZ? I don't know where to start. Is there a vendor I call that resells to me?

nd5y · Jul 7, 2015

interestedinradio said:
this is a scientific study and the internet has jjitter (transmission time varies wildly) - we need quasi-instantaneous (speed of light) response.

with transmission over the air, we can discount exactly D/c where D=distance and c=speed of light. while over the internet we have delta = 53 +- 10 ms. with internet we are observing 10% variation on transmission times and that taints the results.

The path length and delay time of ionospheric HF propagation can change. I don't know the exact time delays involved. It would probably be way more than a stationary direct line of site VHF, UHF or microwave path that doesn't change much over short periods of time. What you want to do may not be possible on HF.

The only "vendors" I know of would be the companies that provide HF service to the maritime and aviation industry. You need to hire a communications consultant. If all your stations were in the US you might be able to get an experimental license from the FCC but then you would have to do the same in other countries involved.

interestedinradio · Jul 7, 2015

Thanks Tom. Whether it is possible or not, where would someone begin to try and secure a slice of this bandwidth say between 18-24 MHZ for commercial use? Is there a reseller or a firm I can call? If any companies that come to mind I should call, please let me know. I am quite interested to have a call and learn more how one get access to these radio waves for commercial use.

nd5y · Jul 7, 2015

As far as I know you can't just rent HF spectrum or radios in the US. The FCC generally doesn't issue licenses for business type operation on HF. They do issue lots of experimental licenses for R&D type activities. Many of them are on HF. Maybe contact the FCC and and ARRL and tell them what you want to do. The ARRL has obtained many experimental licenses over the years and might at least be able to tell you how to go about it or who to talk to at the FCC.

interestedinradio · Jul 7, 2015

nd5y said:
As far as I know you can't just rent HF spectrum or radios in the US. The FCC generally doesn't issue licenses for business type operation on HF. They do issue lots of experimental licenses for R&D type activities. Many of them are on HF. Maybe contact the FCC and and ARRL and tell them what you want to do. The ARRL has obtained many experimental licenses over the years and might at least be able to tell you how to go about it or who to talk to at the FCC.

This is ultimately for commercial use where we will be making a profit. So I don't believe we can do anything as an "Amateur".

The FCC seems hard to connect with on this. That is why I wanted to get a sense of folks operating commercially within these bands....how are they able to do this? Are there companies in private sector that help facilitate and set up someone to utilize these bands for commercial use?

krokus · Jul 7, 2015

You mentioned jitter being a concern, which will be significantly worse on HF. There are so many variations on propagation, depending frequency, the ionosphere, hops, multipath signals, fading, interfering signals. The ionosphere alone is a huge variable, as mentioned already, and sometimes no signal is allowed past RF horizon.

The symbol rates that work decently on HF are not likely to support any modern concept of high speed data.

Sent via Tapatalk

interestedinradio · Jul 7, 2015

krokus said:
You mentioned jitter being a concern, which will be significantly worse on HF. There are so many variations on propagation, depending frequency, the ionosphere, hops, multipath signals, fading, interfering signals. The ionosphere alone is a huge variable, as mentioned already, and sometimes no signal is allowed past RF horizon.

The symbol rates that work decently on HF are not likely to support any modern concept of high speed data.

Sent via Tapatalk

Thanks Krokus. Appreciate the insight.

As for the business side of my question, if you have any advice on how to commercially get up and running in the MHZ range, please let me know. Or if any consultants or companies that aid in this process.

nd5y · Jul 7, 2015

interestedinradio said:
This is startup idea around data analysis in financial markets.

I missed that part.

If you are planning to build something like an intercontinental version of this, or CME and Nasdaq Launch Microwave Link that operates on HF then you are probably wasting your time.

interestedinradio · Jul 7, 2015

Thanks Tom. No, this is a research study with commercial implications.

I appreciate everyone's help here. Any more pointed advice on how one gets ability to commercially use spectrum...perhaps sublicense from a company or some consultant that hooks companies up is what I am looking for.

nd5y · Jul 7, 2015

interestedinradio said:
we need quasi-instantaneous (speed of light) response.

I just remembered something else important.
If you want to send high speed data on HF and expect the received data to be the same as what was sent you will need forward error correction. That means everything has to be sent twice (or several times) with a time delay which will greatly increase latency. Propagation and interference is going to mess up your data. The higher the baud rate the more it gets butchered.

mmckenna · Jul 7, 2015

Based off your requirements, HF isn't the best place for this.

Delay via the internet is a variable, but there are some ways around that. Tagging traffic on a network with a higher priority is done all the time. Using consumer grade internet connection for this isn't going to work. You'll need something more or less dedicated.

Bandwidth:
You won't get much on HF. You won't likely get a big enough slice of the band to have any appreciable throughput. you'd be looking at 10's or 100's of bytes per second at the most, probably with a lot of error.

It sounds to me like you are trying to reinvent a 50 year old wheel. These issues have long since been solved with better technology. You could certainly try doing something via HF, but it think it's going to be futile, based on the requirements you've given.

New to radio, Commerical Usage Question, 18-24MHZ

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