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Medical Helicopter Air-to-Ground Frequency
- Thread starter BlueDevil
- Start date
- Status
scooter1968
Member
brandon, where i live in Spokane, WA, Medstar which is our main helicopter medical service works off of Analog on a frequency of 462.975......hope this helps
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
It really depends on where you are. Many states have pre-determined frequencies to handle this. California often uses the CALCORD frequency. It's designed for interoperability between public safety agencies/contractors/other government uses (not amateur or commercial LMR)
156.075 simplex. State OES has the license, however I think many individual agencies have one too.
156.075 simplex. State OES has the license, however I think many individual agencies have one too.
This topic came up the other day during some conversations I was having with other communications folks. We were discussing whether or not an aircraft can legally use a frequency licensed for ground-to-ground communications. The FCC licenses held by our local public safety agencies don't account for stations transmitting from a mobile at an elevation of 500+/- feet above the ground.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
I forget the exact details, but I do seem to recall that aircraft are required to use greatly reduced power on these frequencies. The risks of interference to far off co-channel system is a real issue when you are at 3000 feet.
KB7MIB
Member
In the Phoenix metro area, they typically use 154.280 (VFIRE 21), known locally as fire channel 4, due to it's common location in the VHF radio templates of the majority of FD's, to communicate with FD ground units.
When communicating with Maricopa County Sheriff's deputies, they use 159.090, known as "Search 8" on MCSO radios, a holdover from when they had 7 UHF channels, then their VHF channel was their 8th channel.
I'm only speaking as a scanner enthusiast, relating what I hear, not as a first responder with first hand knowledge of any particular agency's radio system, or standard operating procedures.
John
Peoria, AZ
When communicating with Maricopa County Sheriff's deputies, they use 159.090, known as "Search 8" on MCSO radios, a holdover from when they had 7 UHF channels, then their VHF channel was their 8th channel.
I'm only speaking as a scanner enthusiast, relating what I hear, not as a first responder with first hand knowledge of any particular agency's radio system, or standard operating procedures.
John
Peoria, AZ
sfd119
Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2009
- Messages
- 1,763
Pretty sure you've got that backwards. If they were transmitting CSQ and your Receive requires a PL tone of 156.7, you won't be hearing them
.
Nope, he's got it right. The 2011 NIFOG called for CSQ on the Rx channel and TPL 156.7 on the Tx channel. The preprogrammed Tx TPL allowed local users who experienced co-channel interference to optionally add Rx TPL and still fully utilize the channel. Many, many public safety radios were programmed to the 2011 charts and remain that way to this dayPretty sure you've got that backwards. If they were transmitting CSQ and your Receive requires a PL tone of 156.7, you won't be hearing them
However, the 2014 NIFOG makes no mention of Tx TPL for the VFIRE and VMED channels. Similarly, VLAW31 and VLAW32 don't call for Tx TPL. The VCALL and VTAC channels still have Tx TPL's assigned. VSAR16 (or SAR160) still has TPL 127.3 assigned for both Tx and RX because that was its common usage long before NIFOG was created.
sfd119
Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2009
- Messages
- 1,763
Read his post above, he's got CSQ on TX, and 156.7 PL on RX. If they're transmitting on CSQ and the radio is looking for RX with 156.7 PL, they'll never hear anything....
In our county, one of the locally licensed VHF channels is designated FIRE & EMS 1 as a work channel for incidents as needed (155.3250.) It's also preplanned to be the primary LZ frequency and the helos are considered mobile units under the county's license.
KB1VLA
Member
New Hampshire has designated VMED-29 (155.3475/156.7) as medical helo LZ coordination, whereas Maine uses the State Fire channel (154.310 CSQ). This is in addition to company channels used by each agency (Boston Medflight, DHART, Lifeflight of Maine, etc).
Air to ground communications in LMR spectrum is allowed by the FCC in 90.423
https://www.apcointl.org/doc/spectrum-management/21-fcc-rules-part-90/file.html
Look at page 395 for the details.
There are some issues regarding 700MHz trunk systems. Maryland and the FCC are looking at changing rules to allow certain technologies or frequencies to be used.
chris
https://www.apcointl.org/doc/spectrum-management/21-fcc-rules-part-90/file.html
Look at page 395 for the details.
There are some issues regarding 700MHz trunk systems. Maryland and the FCC are looking at changing rules to allow certain technologies or frequencies to be used.
chris
902
Member
My local air ambulance uses Bell 407s an is operated by the Sheriff. They serve triple duty as not only an ambulance, but as law enforcement and fire suppression, as well.
They operate on two bands - primarily on a VHF repeater which is hard-patched to an 800 trunked talkgroup, and on the 800 system, itself.
The VHF operation is straightforward. They are the sole user and have immediate access to the dispatcher without the potential for queuing. On 800, it's a little more complicated because of simulcast overlaps causing phasing problems and reuse by counties that would be within line of sight at altitude. On-scene coordination can be done directly on the operational talkgroup, or through the hard-patched VHF system, either on the usual talkgroup or through console patching by the dispatcher. All ground operations are 800, with UHF and VHF in some specialty vehicles that have to interface with external agencies.
Where I lived before, there were two air ambulance services. One operated on their own VHF repeater system on business frequencies, as public safety VHF was very crowded there, the other used to use MED 9, but was moved for some reason to their own UHF business frequency repeater. On-scene coordination took place on a VHF fire mutual aid channel.
There was only one air ambulance in the region I grew up in. They were on a statewide 800 MHz analog trunked talkgroup and seemed to have good results. Now there are more, and those seem to be operating on the MED channels. Coordination used to take place either on pre-set agency response channels (I thought that worked very well) or common channels. The dispatcher had a database of who was on what channel and told the air crew which preset on the Wulfsberg the area they were en route to operated on.
As for the scope of the license, a license does not define height of mobiles. As long as the aircraft are enumerated in the mobile count, they remain primarily within the defined area of operation, and they comply with 90.423, they are "legal." Very basically, 90.423 requires aircraft to be below 5,280 feet, operate no greater than 10 Watts output power (practically, Effective Radiated Power is 10 W or less depending on antenna configuration), and their operations are "secondary" to land-based operations. Coordinators could put additional restrictions on ERP if there is interference to other operations.
An aircraft at altitude casts a tremendous footprint that could potentially "paint" a good portion of most states with potential interference.
They operate on two bands - primarily on a VHF repeater which is hard-patched to an 800 trunked talkgroup, and on the 800 system, itself.
The VHF operation is straightforward. They are the sole user and have immediate access to the dispatcher without the potential for queuing. On 800, it's a little more complicated because of simulcast overlaps causing phasing problems and reuse by counties that would be within line of sight at altitude. On-scene coordination can be done directly on the operational talkgroup, or through the hard-patched VHF system, either on the usual talkgroup or through console patching by the dispatcher. All ground operations are 800, with UHF and VHF in some specialty vehicles that have to interface with external agencies.
Where I lived before, there were two air ambulance services. One operated on their own VHF repeater system on business frequencies, as public safety VHF was very crowded there, the other used to use MED 9, but was moved for some reason to their own UHF business frequency repeater. On-scene coordination took place on a VHF fire mutual aid channel.
There was only one air ambulance in the region I grew up in. They were on a statewide 800 MHz analog trunked talkgroup and seemed to have good results. Now there are more, and those seem to be operating on the MED channels. Coordination used to take place either on pre-set agency response channels (I thought that worked very well) or common channels. The dispatcher had a database of who was on what channel and told the air crew which preset on the Wulfsberg the area they were en route to operated on.
As for the scope of the license, a license does not define height of mobiles. As long as the aircraft are enumerated in the mobile count, they remain primarily within the defined area of operation, and they comply with 90.423, they are "legal." Very basically, 90.423 requires aircraft to be below 5,280 feet, operate no greater than 10 Watts output power (practically, Effective Radiated Power is 10 W or less depending on antenna configuration), and their operations are "secondary" to land-based operations. Coordinators could put additional restrictions on ERP if there is interference to other operations.
An aircraft at altitude casts a tremendous footprint that could potentially "paint" a good portion of most states with potential interference.
NM specifies the use of a state-wide, state licensed simplex frequency for air to ground comms.
They reserve one of their channels in each frequency band as air to ground, but those are rarely used.
All state owned or operated aircraft have at a minimum VHF and UHF radios carrying the VHF mutual aid channels which includes V-A/G and UHF EMSCOMM + U-A/G
All emergency vehicles are supposed to have the state mutual aid channels which includes state car to car and state fire. Both of those can be used to contact aircraft on a medical scene and are commonly used.
They reserve one of their channels in each frequency band as air to ground, but those are rarely used.
All state owned or operated aircraft have at a minimum VHF and UHF radios carrying the VHF mutual aid channels which includes V-A/G and UHF EMSCOMM + U-A/G
All emergency vehicles are supposed to have the state mutual aid channels which includes state car to car and state fire. Both of those can be used to contact aircraft on a medical scene and are commonly used.
nd5y
Member
Sometime in the past couple years the FCC reserved 8 frequency pairs in the 700 MHz band for air-to-ground use.
700 MHz Air-to-Ground
W3DMV
Member
This post sure generated many different answers and
looks like everyone does their own thing. One thing
is for sure, nobody is going to bust a med helo operating
on a frequency required to complete a medical mission.
No one cares how high the ship is and how many square miles
his radio will blot out !
In this part of the country it goes like this;
On scene commander radios request for air med to
the county dispatcher.
Dispatcher relays request for chopper and provides the
helicopter dispatch center with info regarding the
coordinates of the landing zone, type of incident, landing
officer,and the on scene frequency to be used. This info
is relayed to the pilot on a company frequency as he gets
airborne.
As the chopper nears the landing zone, the pilot switches
to the on scene frequency and communicates with the landing
zone officer. The pilot is briefed on the landing zone
description, obstructions in the area and other important
information.
When the helo departs the scene, he briefly switches his
radio to his company frequency to inform his dispatcher
that he has departed the scene and what hospital he is
transporting to.
After clearing his company dispatcher, he now changes
frequency for the third time and jumps to the destination
hospital to inform them of his transport and patient
information for the receiving trauma doctors.
The on scene frequency will change per incident and is
usually the local fire channel assigned when dispatched
on the call.
Note: Most of the choppers who respond in this part of
the state have multiband radios and can change the tone
and frequency as required to match the landing zone if
one is required. These radios have memory channels so
many of the common ones are pre programmed.
Many of the helos here are not programmed for trunking
systems since each area has it's own system and and it
becomes a big problem Several do have the trunking
system programmed for the county their stationed in,
but outside the area it's a no go. If their radio can
not be changed to the provided frequency, a common
tac frequency will sometimes be used, or they will
contact our county dispatcher on a med channel for a
request for a patch to the scene.
No doubt in my mind, the pilot is a busy person and
would never have time to chew gum !
----
looks like everyone does their own thing. One thing
is for sure, nobody is going to bust a med helo operating
on a frequency required to complete a medical mission.
No one cares how high the ship is and how many square miles
his radio will blot out !
In this part of the country it goes like this;
On scene commander radios request for air med to
the county dispatcher.
Dispatcher relays request for chopper and provides the
helicopter dispatch center with info regarding the
coordinates of the landing zone, type of incident, landing
officer,and the on scene frequency to be used. This info
is relayed to the pilot on a company frequency as he gets
airborne.
As the chopper nears the landing zone, the pilot switches
to the on scene frequency and communicates with the landing
zone officer. The pilot is briefed on the landing zone
description, obstructions in the area and other important
information.
When the helo departs the scene, he briefly switches his
radio to his company frequency to inform his dispatcher
that he has departed the scene and what hospital he is
transporting to.
After clearing his company dispatcher, he now changes
frequency for the third time and jumps to the destination
hospital to inform them of his transport and patient
information for the receiving trauma doctors.
The on scene frequency will change per incident and is
usually the local fire channel assigned when dispatched
on the call.
Note: Most of the choppers who respond in this part of
the state have multiband radios and can change the tone
and frequency as required to match the landing zone if
one is required. These radios have memory channels so
many of the common ones are pre programmed.
Many of the helos here are not programmed for trunking
systems since each area has it's own system and and it
becomes a big problem Several do have the trunking
system programmed for the county their stationed in,
but outside the area it's a no go. If their radio can
not be changed to the provided frequency, a common
tac frequency will sometimes be used, or they will
contact our county dispatcher on a med channel for a
request for a patch to the scene.
No doubt in my mind, the pilot is a busy person and
would never have time to chew gum !
----
902
Member
You touched on an important point. Completing a medical mission. That doesn't include routine operations. At that point, 90.423 kicks in and they are explicitly secondary.
University of Michigan Survival Flight has many options. As they do most of their operational radio traffic on MPSCS, they frequently utilize Air LZ1 and Air LZ2 on MPSCS. The birds have the ability to come up on many VHF and UHF freqs, too, which covers most of their operations area. (I am uncertain if they have the ability to access the non-MPSCS trunking systems, other than the cross patches that are pre-connected to MPSCS.)
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