Front end of WS-1095

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SCPD

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I have been having a discussion with one of my friends .. re the WS-1095 who says essentially that 'the GRE / Whistler scanners are useless" that they overload and you cannot connect them to an outside antenna.

He is using a discone up 30-40 ft and refuses to accept that a Whistler scanner would even work to receive distant stations.

For those people that have Uniden scanners .. how does the 1095 compare for strictly its ability to receive vs the Unidens ?

So .. wondering if anyone is using the 1095 on an outside antenna and how they find it in this regard.
 

wise871

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I guess you need a new friend. :p The majority of 1095 user I have talked too on the side are external antenna users and none have mentioned overload front end issues. Also Doug (K4DPS) is using a serious external antenna setup and his 1095 is performing like a champ and pulling in some nice signals.
 

troymail

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I'm sure this really depends on where you are and the signal environment - particularly if near and pulling in cell tower crap. There's times when I mobile or driving and start looking around for a "masked" cell site based on the reception I'm getting (or not getting).
 

SCPD

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I mostly monitor an Edacs system .. and my 1095 is definitely much more happy with my antenna inside my residence than it is with the outside antenna.

In testing .. another friend of mine and I have found that the GRE / Whistler scanners are considerably more sensitive than the Uniden we tested.
(that was testing the PSR500/PSR800/WS-1080/Uniden 436HP recently)

I know it is only 1 Uniden .. but we hope to be able to test more of them.

The results are here .. http://forums.radioreference.com/gr...ler-1080-psr800-psr500-bcd436hp-shootout.html

I am hoping that we can test a couple of new scanners he is getting soon .. the HP2e and WS-1095.

I think that is why the Unidens perform better when on outside antennas, they are simply not as sensitive.
 

wise871

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Simply installing a filter or an FM trap will solve most problems. I run a Pro-197 on external antenna and it wouldn't pick up air bands. After adding the filter it works like a champ against all my scanners.
 

KevinC

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He could be referencing VHF-hi. I can't speak for the Whistler-based units, but the PSR-800 (like all GRE-based units) suffers from desense from FM broadcast transmitters. A good FM filter usually resolves the issue.
 

kruser

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He could be referencing VHF-hi. I can't speak for the Whistler-based units, but the PSR-800 (like all GRE-based units) suffers from desense from FM broadcast transmitters. A good FM filter usually resolves the issue.

The 1095 is the same front end design. It's still GRE's design. A good FM broadcast band filter can make a world of difference if you are near FM radio stations running high power. Also paging signals in the 152 and 158 MHz bands can desense the front ends so notch filters for those bands can also help if near paging sites. Hospitals almost all use VHF paging and most have transmitters running high power on their rooftops. Kind of stupid really figuring the way the signal radiation pattern leaves the antenna. They run high power and brute force the signals down into the basement areas where most ER's are located.
 

SCPD

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I have an FM filter that my friend built .. and tested with test equipment. It did not make any difference .. the 1095 still performed 'not as good as I would have liked' on the outside antenna. (or really I should say .. not as good as on the inside antenna).

The answer .. my outside antenna just honestly overloads the 1095's front end.

I should probably tell everyone that I live about 1 mile from the downtown area here .. absolutely RF hell.

That is why I use commercial radios for almost all my listening. Lets face it .. way better than any scanner.

But for the 1095 .. it is definitely being overloaded at my location. The answer .. an inside antenna. It works just as good as my commercial gear then.

I wish I had an answer .. but I don't. Oh .. 99% of my listening is on 800 MHz. My friend .. lives in the suburbs. I think that makes all the difference. I have not tested the 1095 at his location .. but the PSR500 at least was embarrassing at his house, however .. I think we were using a piece of coax with no antenna on the other end. Yes .. I think he would do it to prove a point.
 
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KevinC

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I have an FM filter that my friend built .. and tested with test equipment. It did not make any difference .. the 1095 still performed 'not as good as I would have liked' on the outside antenna. (or really I should say .. not as good as on the inside antenna).

The answer .. my outside antenna just honestly overloads the 1095's front end.

I should probably tell everyone that I live about 1 mile from the downtown area here .. absolutely RF hell.

That is why I use commercial radios for almost all my listening. Lets face it .. way better than any scanner.

But for the 1095 .. it is definitely being overloaded at my location. The answer .. an inside antenna. It works just as good as my commercial gear then.

I wish I had an answer .. but I don't. Oh .. 99% of my listening is on 800 MHz. My friend .. lives in the suburbs. I think that makes all the difference. I have not tested the 1095 at his location .. but the PSR500 at least was embarrassing at his house, however .. I think we were using a piece of coax with no antenna on the other end. Yes .. I think he would do it to prove a point.

What type of filter was it?

I have multiple stations that hit me at -35 dBm and my PAR filter works wonders.
 

wise871

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I second the PAR filter. They even customize it for me based on my requirements.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

KevinC

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I second the PAR filter. They even customize it for me based on my requirements.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm very pro-PAR! I have 2 off-the-shelf filters from Dale and (I believe) 7 custom ones. :D
 

SCPD

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What type of filter was it?

I have multiple stations that hit me at -35 dBm and my PAR filter works wonders.

Custom designed FM filter .. home brew.I don't think that the FM stations are the problem .. as there are no transmitters for them anywhere near here. Pagers .. that may be a different story.
 

KevinC

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Custom designed FM filter .. home brew.I don't think that the FM stations are the problem .. as there are no transmitters for them anywhere near here. Pagers .. that may be a different story.

Gotcha!
 

NW7OR

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These radios have a very soft front-end....so hams beware!! My 2m radio in my mobile damaged the radio and made analog reception nearly impossible, except for very close signals. Even digital reception was very seriously degraded. This is because the receiver antenna and transceiver antenna are just a little over a foot away from each other. The really funny thing is that my cheap, Uniden CB radio hasn't been hurt at all....go figure. For the really curious, you can see photos on my QRZ page.

My solution was to purchase a front-end protector from Array Solutions:

AS-RXFEP

It's a bit spendy at $63.00, but then it's protecting my brand new Whistler WS1080 from any damage and doing so perfectly. This will also work beautifully for hams with discone receiver antennas and protect their investment in their radios.

Otherwise, whenever this radio is near any other transmitters, pull the antenna until you're well away.
 

kruser

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I've found over the years that the main culprit is usually FM broadcast radio stations for most users.
They don't need to be close either figuring many stations emit 100,000 watts of power.

Then the number two offender is paging transmitters in the VHF hi band (150 MHz) area. Paging junk runs a few hundred watts ERP usually and some run a near 100% duty cycle so they are rarely off the air. Paging is also wideband and then some if you look at the signals from some of those transmitters with a service monitor.

Both the above signal sources can and often do desense the heck out of GRE designed radios. Remember that GRE designed radios were sold under the GRE name, the RadioShack name and now the Whistler name.
They all use the same basic front end design including those sold by Whistler. The WS-1095 is really nothing more than a GRE PSR-800.

I've also experienced desense from a county PD precinct transmitter that is only a mile or two away from me. That one was not that bad though as they don't talk constantly

I've personally not had many problems from other strong signals in other bands.

Some speculate that the GRE radios have no or poor filtering in the VHF Hi band.
I actually think this may be true from some of the testing I've done.

I've not had much trouble from other high power stations like TV for example but VHF Hi and FM broadcast get in and can wipe out all bands in the GRE design.
We had a 5KW highway patrol transmitter on 42 MHz that was on the air very often. I live only a mile or two away. That transmitter never caused any noticeable desense in any of my GRE radios in any band. I also have 21 or 27 cell towers within a mile or less of my location and those never caused any issues. Some of those cell towers were really the old Nextel iDen network on the towers. Those signals also never caused me any real issues though.

So basically, almost all the crud getting in and desensing the GRE front ends is originating from signals between about 80 MHz up to about 160 MHz.

I first built stub filters for the FM Broadcast band. They helped but I was still being hit by something else. I watched the bands with a spectrum analyzer and found my desense occurred mostly when the paging transmitters in either the 152 MHz or 158 MHz paging bands went live on the air.
I built stub filters for those bands and my problem was mostly gone.
Stub filters are pretty wideband though so they knocked out signals that I wanted.
The stub filters were just a test that helped me ID the culprit(s) at nearly zero cost. Due to the wide notch width of a stub filter, I replaced them all with notch filters from PAR Electronics when I had all the offenders figured out.

PAR filters have a narrow notch width (a tight skirt) so you don't lose much above and below the filters center frequency.
I also messed with the old FM Traps that RadioShack sold but found many of them were centered way out of the actual FM band. They were a cheap way to test though as you could return them. I took the back off of many of those RadioShack traps and realigned them so they were centered in the middle of the FM Broadcast band. It was easy and usually just required opening or closing the spacing of some of the air wound coils.
A little hot glue fixed them so they would not go off frequency if they were dropped.

I later purchased a PAR FM Trap even though my main culprits were paging transmitters in the 152 MHz paging band and to a lesser extent, the 158 MHz paging band.
NOAA WX transmitters are also suspect for many. They run 24x7 and often emit 1,000 watts. I did purchase a 162 MHz notch filter from PAR but I mainly used it to get rid of the mixing products that affected my old crystal scanners and any radio that did not have triple conversion IF stages.

Lookup "stub filters" and you will see how easy they are to build. They can help you determine the culprits causing desense or intermodulation issues in GRE designed radio's or any radio made before they came out with triple conversion designs.

I don't recommend leaving a stub filter in place as they also have multiple harmonics and may be killing signals that you want.
Figure out the culprits and then purchase quality notch filters such as those sold by PAR.

The correct filter(s) can make a useless scanner work fantastic.

My nearest FM Broadcast station is at least 10+ miles away from me but it still wiped out the front end in my GRE radios or caused intermodulation distortion from mixing with other transmitters as they came and went on/off the air. The PAR FM filter took care of those problems easily.

All in all, the GRE designed front ends work well if given proper filtering at the antenna input.

I am curious if Whistler will improve things in this area if they ever produce a radio of their own design.

All in all, those that have desense or overload issues with a GRE design can usually fix the problem.
One thing to keep in mind, especially for those that live in high RF level areas, is that your problem is very likely caused by more than one source. So multiple filters are often needed.
 

SCPD

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Because my interest is monitoring local public services .. I have zero need to receive anything that is far away.

That makes things easier .. as I found that I can resolve any 'desense' etc issues just by using my inside antenna rather than the outside one. The signals are strong.

I receive the system that I want currently on my PSR800/WS-1095 perfectly fine right now.

This thread was started as I wanted to find out how the 1095 compares to the Uniden scanners of users. I don't think I will find out an answer .. as there are just so many variables involved.

I do appreciate the comments re the filters, but I do not need one as nothing is really broken. There are no indications that I am missing any transmissions.
 
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