Sequoia National Forest Admin Net

I see 168.175 is the Admin Net for Sequoia National Forest; What is the input frequency? Anyone have it?

I'm not sure if you've seen this already, but this listing in the Wiki might help:

RR Wiki: US Forest Service Sequoia National Forest#Channel Plan

At the bottom of the linked page are some notes about CTCSS tones, as well.

Hope this helps,

The database seems to indicate that this is not a repeater frequency. Do you hear it as a repeater?

I searched various sites and found nothing but obsolete and erroneous information. The RR database is by far the most reliable.

It's the "Admin" Tac 5 aka a Simplex channel

wb6sub said:

I see 168.175 is the Admin Net for Sequoia National Forest; What is the input frequency? Anyone have it?

Click to expand...

The Sequoia National Forest Admin Net uses simplex. The microwave linked remote base stations are used for base station to mobile communications. I'm not sure if this is a voted system or not. Also, microwave got too expensive at some of the forest's remote base stations and were then put back on UHF links like they had been in the past. Those UHF linked remote base stations might be utilized from base/mobile communications on the admin net as well. If this net is voted then these UHF linked base stations are probably included.

It would seem that it would have to be voted or it would be pretty hard for the dispatcher and other base stations to figure out what remote base to use when replying to a mobile unit. This is the only national forest I'm aware of that is still using a simplex frequency for base-mobile communications. When I started working for the Forest Service in 1974 all we had, at least in the USFS's Region 3 (AZ and NM), was simplex. If we needed to communicate with another mobile out of range then we had to call a lookout to relay our traffic. If we were in an area that was blind to the remote base used by the dispatcher then we would have to relay through a lookout. Once fire season ended and the lookouts were no longer staffed we were out of luck. This simplex admin net of the Sequoia's seems to be a throwback to that era.

Field communications for admin units has to be limited as two mobile units would have to be in simplex range. Not being able to extend that range with a repeater would be difficult. For example, if a unit (non fire such as recreation, wildlife, timber etc.) is near the Blackrock Station on the Kern Plateau and wants to communicate with another unit located along the upper Kern River, they couldn't due to topography. If a admin repeater was located on Sherman Peak, where a fire and a emergency repeater are located, then communications would be fairly easy.

I haven't spent much time listening to the Sequoia NF. It is in a portion of the state I don't spend much time in. I haven't been traveling much in the last 2-3 years so I guess I can say that for nearly everywhere.

Thank you so much all and a special thank you to ExSmokey! Didn't think they would use a simplex. The only one I know that uses that set up is LA county Fire for Air to Ground 154.400 151.4 PL. Numerous sites receive and dispatcher selects the site they want to go out by what voter on the console lights up when the field unit transmits

wb6sub said:

Thank you so much all and a special thank you to ExSmokey! Didn't think they would use a simplex. The only one I know that uses that set up is LA county Fire for Air to Ground 154.400 151.4 PL. Numerous sites receive and dispatcher selects the site they want to go out by what voter on the console lights up when the field unit transmits

Click to expand...

It is very rare to have a frequency pair used for a repeater designated as a "tac channel." One exception exists in California where Sequoia-Kings Canyon National Park uses a repeater on their Tac 3. Air to grounds at the federal and state levels for land management agencies are simplex and I don't remember any exceptions. Air to air tactics are simplex, both on FM and AM. Command nets use repeaters and in the case of large incidents where the NIFC cache is used this has no exception. In the last 2-3 years I've been able to look at the frequency directories of nearly every Geographical Area Coordination Center and I don't recall any National Forest, National Park, National Wildlife Refuge (the larger ones) and BLM District that uses simplex for their main net or nets.

wb6sub said:

Thank you so much all and a special thank you to ExSmokey! Didn't think they would use a simplex. The only one I know that uses that set up is LA county Fire for Air to Ground 154.400 151.4 PL. Numerous sites receive and dispatcher selects the site they want to go out by what voter on the console lights up when the field unit transmits

Click to expand...

I don't know how long you've been in the radio hobby. Dispatching for the L.A. County Fire Department used to be on three VHF frequencies, prior to their move to UHF. The L.A. Basin and the Santa Monica Mountains was on 154.430 and dispatch identified as "L.A., the San Gabriel Valley was on 154.340 and identified as "Valley," and the northern county was on 154.400 and identified as "Antelope." The Santa Monica Mountains may have been on the "Antelope" net, I can't recall now.

Normally, air to ground is reserved for units on the scene of an incident and base stations, including dispatchers, aren't allowed on those frequencies. So remoter bases and receive sites are not installed. Dispatchers contact the air tactics group supervisor (air attack) on the dispatch net. Air attack has to monitor the dispatch net, air guard, air to air FM and AM and air to ground. I believe, but don't remember it from my career, that air attack also monitors the command net. If air attack can't be contacted on the dispatch net, the dispatcher calls the incident and the comm unit contacts them or dispatch uses air guard for the initial contact and then asks them to move over to the dispatch net. The only difference at the state level is that dispatch can use the command repeaters because, up to now, they have been permanent installations.

Given the load on air attack the feds have recently been designating a "command air to ground" as well as a tactical air to ground. Tactical air to ground is used by every position on an incident. Crew bosses and superintendents, squad bosses, engine captains, all helitack crewmembers and others for communicating very detailed information. Command air to ground is used by the IC, the ops chief, branch directors and division supervisors. The traffic is less detailed and more command or strategic in nature. Examples of detailed air to ground traffic would be between a helitanker and a hotshot crew superintendent about making the next water drop 50 feet higher near the large red fir with the lightning killed top. Examples of command air to ground would be we a the ops chief telling air attack that we need to "paint" (drop retardant) all the way up the right flank before dropping on the left flank as the two hotshot crews we are going to send in to start firing out on the right flank need air support.

I've seen the complete channel plan for L.A. County and noticed 154.4000 shown as air to ground. I had no idea it is used for base and dispatcher communications as well.

Dispatching on WHAT channel?

Exsmokey said:

Air attack has to monitor the dispatch net, air guard, air to air FM and AM and air to ground. I believe, but don't remember it from my career, that air attack also monitors the command net. If air attack can't be contacted on the dispatch net, the dispatcher calls the incident and the comm unit contacts them or dispatch uses air guard for the initial contact and then asks them to move over to the dispatch net.

Click to expand...

Interesting you would mention that right now. As you've probably heard, N/W California has had a couple dozen lightning-strike fires in Mendo, Trinity and Humboldt counties, with significant slopover between SRF, SHU, HIA and HUU. Around noon yesterday when the coastal fog lifted, they called for all the air assets they could get, especially tankers.

Redding and Fortuna Command Centers and the Air Attacks were busy as he|| of course. I hadn't heard the relevant messages, but at one point AA120 notified Fortuna that he was having trouble figuring out the resources he was getting, to the effect "I got your list of my tankers and helos, but someone is dispatching Tankers on Air Guard and I can't reach half of mine." A few higher-priority messages went back and forth with other units, and then Fortuna asked 120 quite incredulously "Verify for me that air tankers are being dispatched on Air Guard??" 120 confirmed it and the dispatcher, obviously nearly furious, said that either he or AA120 needed to contact Redding right now and get that situation set right immediately. With all the traffic on multiple frequencies I didn't catch the rest of the story, but I can imagine.

KMA367 said:

Interesting you would mention that right now. As you've probably heard, N/W California has had a couple dozen lightning-strike fires in Mendo, Trinity and Humboldt counties, with significant slopover between SRF, SHU, HIA and HUU. Around noon yesterday when the coastal fog lifted, they called for all the air assets they could get, especially tankers.

Redding and Fortuna Command Centers and the Air Attacks were busy as he|| of course. I hadn't heard the relevant messages, but at one point AA120 notified Fortuna that he was having trouble figuring out the resources he was getting, to the effect "I got your list of my tankers and helos, but someone is dispatching Tankers on Air Guard and I can't reach half of mine." A few higher-priority messages went back and forth with other units, and then Fortuna asked 120 quite incredulously "Verify for me that air tankers are being dispatched on Air Guard??" 120 confirmed it and the dispatcher, obviously nearly furious, said that either he or AA120 needed to contact Redding right now and get that situation set right immediately. With all the traffic on multiple frequencies I didn't catch the rest of the story, but I can imagine.

Click to expand...

The number of starts in the last couple of days can be overwhelming for dispatch centers. We are talking in the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of strikes with a fewer number of starts, of course, but none the less a few dozen of those strikes will ignite a fire. NIFC policy specifically outlines that Air Guard is not to be used for dispatching. It is to be used for emergencies and for contacts when such can't be made on other frequencies. In the latter case another frequency or net is to be decided on and all further traffic on Air Guard is to cease. When dispatch is overwhelmed it is not a good idea to break protocol.

Its a good think that more air tactics frequencies and air to ground frequencies were allocated by Cal Fire earlier this year. I can imagine how much more difficult it would be with three air tactics and one air to ground.

The current fire bust somewhat reminds me of the northern California lighting event of late August, early September in 1987. I was out a month with half that time on the Stanislaus Complex and half on the Happy Camp complex. During my days on my first ranger district I drove patrol and had a Type VI engine on the back of the truck. I remember one lightning bust where I was dispatched to three fires, all by myself and was asked to judge which I would respond to first. Helitack crewmembers were being placed on fires by themselves. None of them had a high potential for a rapid rate of spread and were far from structures, at least most of the time. We had to hustle before subsequent days of dry weather would have turned out multiple fires into something more serious. I remember hearing a report of three hundred new starts on the Sequoia NF on one single day. This was before I started my career and now that I'm retired it is hard to conceive of that situation. This was prior to the use of computers in dispatch and the sheer number of paper pages on desks and counter tops must have been something to see.

As for emergencies air to ground traffic from people with boots on the ground can occur. Otherwise it is expressly prohibited. These policies are designed to keep the frequency clear for both aviation and on the ground emergencies. If there aren't any aviation resources on a fire Air Guard is not very useful for an emergency. There is a growing trend to put Air Guard in the Channel 16 slot of every frequency group in every radio so that units can use muscle memory to change channels quickly and not have to hunt through channel lists and alphanumeric displays to find what is needed in less than desirable circumstances.

The last communications from the Granite Mountain Hotshots was on Air Guard. I've read the script of those communications and/or listened to them. I read the investigation report and found the script, but I think I heard the recordings of them on a Arizona State Forestry Division webpage. If you haven't fought a few major ragers it is hard for other people to imagine how horrible it is to read and hear communications like this.

I should mention that I started following fuel moistures in late January this year. By the end of April it looked like the upcoming season was going to be epic. I have full fire gear and tools in my garage, including a rather expensive purchase of one of the latest generation fire shelters. The helmet is hanging on the wall at the front of the garage, with a face/neck shroud and googles attached to it. I have a respirator handy as well, something I did not use on fires prior to retirement, but I think it would beat having a dry bandana over my nose and mouth. By the way, DO NOT place a wet towel or wet handkerchief over your mouth/throat if heavy smoke is present. This is counter intuitive, but it has been thoroughly researched and it makes things worse for your lungs and sinuses.

The day after I moved into my place I scoped out a good safety zone. Then a new building was put up as our hospital was expanded. I've scoped out another one although it is not a good as the first. I'm fully prepared to stay even when "ordered" to leave. I don't recommend this for anyone short of having 25 years of fire experience on more than 100 fires with 3-4 on 100,000+ acres. Direct fire experience in the fuel type I live in is something I have fair share of. In late April I was up on the roof taking measurements needed to build a rack for a rather large area sprinkler that I've hauled around four states in the last umpty frump years. It is a misting sprinkler so water use is low, just right for keeping a roof wet. I have plenty of hose to adjust for wind direction as well. I have enough nozzles to hook up to hoses on the other units in my condo building and they are in a easy place to find. This is how strongly I viewed the upcoming season.

Well, we have had a lot of rain and most fuel moisture measuring locations in the central and south Sierra are above average right now. Same is true in southern California, but remember what the fall can bring down there. Northern California fuel moistures have been affected by the wet weather, but not nearly as much as other locations in the state. Particularly, the northwest coast is the driest in the state. By this I mean all three Cal Fire units along the coast from the Bay Area to Oregon and on the Six Rivers NF. I'm not all that surprised by what we are all observing now.

Gonna close this one out since the question has been answered and we got WAY off topic