Repeaters being internet linked, not rf linked

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teufler

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I am with a group that has decided that linking of 5 repeaters , via the internet , will be the way to go. I an involved with a race event that covers several counties and multiple repeaters. Mobiles have to change repeaters as they get into a new geographic region, and of course net control has to switch radio frequencies to. The scheme of linking, will allow net to transmit on one frequency while then sending audio out to 5 repeaters at the same time. This too would allow a mobile to stay on the same frequency all day no mater what geographic region he is in..I am looking for comments about the CF this will be..
 

cg

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It works fine. Many, many systems use networked sites that are linked by internet. Ham radio operators have a worldwide network, commercial radio vendors have a 5 state, 40+ site system in the greater NY City area. I am sure there are thousands more worldwide. Very common and, when done correctly (extremely important), is not a "CF"

chris
 

n5ims

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I am with a group that has decided that linking of 5 repeaters , via the internet , will be the way to go. I an involved with a race event that covers several counties and multiple repeaters. Mobiles have to change repeaters as they get into a new geographic region, and of course net control has to switch radio frequencies to. The scheme of linking, will allow net to transmit on one frequency while then sending audio out to 5 repeaters at the same time. This too would allow a mobile to stay on the same frequency all day no mater what geographic region he is in..I am looking for comments about the CF this will be..

Actually a mobile may need to change frequency to use the repeater that has coverage for the area they're in, but the same audio will be sent out on all repeaters so everyone will hear everything on all 5 repeaters. Net control will use whatever repeater they have the best signal strength from (and if you have multiple net controls, they can be on different repeaters and still be heard by all).

Below are some links that should give you options on configuring the network links. Be aware that you may need to have repeater controllers that have the necessary ports to handle the link(s), especially if the link(s) are to be turned on and off.

Winsystem
IRLP - Internet Radio Linking Project
Introducing EchoLink
 

teufler

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ok, now say net is talking, they will occupy all 5 frequencies. right? If a mobile is talking to net, are 5 frequencies taken up or just the one that is range of the repeater that the mobile is using.?? I am concerned that we are causing interference to repeaters beyond the one that is really needed. I am also concerned about the Lag in the remotes kicking on from the net control and the mobiles.
 

mass-man

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You are correct sir....all the repeaters will be in use when anyone is transmitting...be it the control op or a mobile. Linking them is giving you a much wider coverage area, without the need for a single, very good, and positioned repeater. From what I have experienced, there is little lag, again if set up properly.
 

teufler

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Great, so if two mobiles are talking on one repeater and if net NEEDS ,TO TALK, net has to standby. Or is two mobiles are conversing on a matter, and net comes on line, calling another, the conversation will really get confusing. The coverage area is not the problem as much as the penetration into the valleys and behind some hills that whatever repeater just does not reach, because of repeater height. Linking just covers what the repeaters normally covered. These repeaters are used in a off road race. While a stage is going in one area, other stages are getting setup so they use other frequencies. Even though we published what frequencies are for what stages, operators are confused so linking will solve the issue of having to change frequencies by tieing up all the frequencies.
Thank you all for some more user experiences in internet linking. I am familar with irlp or echolink, as its more a linking one location to another, this is one to 5 and I am learning what to expect.
 
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Project25_MASTR

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So generally speaking, latency will usually be 100 ms or less if the connection is good. You may see up to 500 ms but that would be rare.

Generally what we do when helping with races, we use UHF repeaters and then designate several VHF simplex frequencies. The reason we do this, not every conversation needs to go through net control, it backs up the system. Little things like participant 914 is looking gassed BOLO for them at your station between two operators isn't worth tying up the system for. Notifiying net control of the progress of the race or of a possible medical emergency is more important. Just something to think about.
 

teufler

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oh for the last 40 years, it has been net on one repeater , then switches to another as the event goes on. Stage has simplex available to stage captains. We have ran dual band radios, and the net operators could switch from one repeater to another as needed.. Course when net was on one side of the radio, his other side was muted or he had the volume turned down so operators calling in, heard no response from net. The thinking of linking will provide all to hear where ever net is at. Conversely, all mobiles will have to refrain from talking to anyone other than net. They can switch to simplex, providing there are in close enough range.Where we race, its all vhf repeaters
 
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n5ims

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ok, now say net is talking, they will occupy all 5 frequencies. right? If a mobile is talking to net, are 5 frequencies taken up or just the one that is range of the repeater that the mobile is using.?? I am concerned that we are causing interference to repeaters beyond the one that is really needed. I am also concerned about the Lag in the remotes kicking on from the net control and the mobiles.

Assuming that you have all 5 repeaters linked, all activity (while the link is active) will be on all 5 repeaters. It won't matter what repeater they're directly talking to, it will be sent out on all 5. Be aware that this will be anyone on any of the repeaters, regardless of if they're part of "the net" or not. For this reason, you'll need to have the owners of the repeaters agree to the linking (they'll need some hardware and an internet connection for the link to work so their cooperation is necessary at any rate).

Interference to repeaters beyond your need shouldn't be an issue unless you have them linked beyond what your needs truly are. Since you're simply providing audio to the linked repeaters, no stray RF should trigger any repeaters beyond those that are linked. Now, if your need isn't always the full list of repeaters, you could have it set up to only link those needed for the event in progress.

Let me explain. You have a bike race that goes for several days and covers 5 counties with each county being covered by a single repeater. Since the daily race starts in one county and ends in another, you only need two repeaters active per day (one in the starting county and one in the ending county). You could have it set up that only those two repeaters are linked during that day and the link rotates around the various county repeaters as the race moves.

The lag is generally minimal. Unless a person has multiple radios and listens to multiple repeaters at once, they should never notice any delay. It's somewhat like a cell phone delay. Talking on a cell phone normally you don't notice any delay. If you happen to talk on one to a person right next to you (perhaps with both on speaker) you may hear a slight delay (especially if they're on different networks that use different towers).

Be aware that depending on how you configure the links, you may allow others to "dial in" to your network and link your repeater to theirs (be that a repeater, an individual station, a computer, or other device). Generally this isn't an issue, but is something you should be aware of. There are several nets that use temporary links to widen their coverage (either regionally or globally, depending on what they desire). One such global net is the Insomniac Net (Late Night Trivia with the Insomniac Net - VA3XPR : VA3XPR) that's a late night net (in the US) that links up to repeaters globally. You may have folks from California talking with others in Texas and having others from Indonesia commenting. Rather fun to listen to actually.
 

teufler

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Thia is a Road Rally. High performance, run against the clock, reminds me of what moonshines did running the backroads many years ago. Its quite popular in Europe. We cover the 5 counties in a day, two days running. About 60 cars per stage, 8 stages a day,, First car completes he has a time to arrive at the second stage and shortly there after he is off on the second stage.Now the second stage might be on the same repeater and then it might get switched depending on the geographic area of the stage.A second repeater clear from the first has been the norm but this year with linking, it appears all stages will run on one effective frequency, because of linking. In an emergency, we usually move to another frequency for the emergency and net runs on , one another frequency, per the emergency plan. I just keep thinking what was, and what will not be around or available.
 

AK9R

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Conversely, all mobiles will have to refrain from talking to anyone other than net.
In my experience, that's the way directed nets are run. All communications go through Net Control. If a net participant has traffic for another net participant, he/she asks Net Control for permission to speak directly to the other station on the net frequency. Alternatively, Net Control will suggest that the two stations go to an alternate frequency pass their traffic. Also, the event's communications plan may list a primary net frequency (and a back-up net frequency) and a "talk around" frequency that stations can use without bothering the net.
 

rapidcharger

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The lag is a very real concern.
It's gonna get old, telling people to repeat themselves because they quick keyed and didn't leave a long enough space.
Even when people use internet linking a lot and know better, sometimes they slip up and don't wait long enough.

It may not sound like a big deal, and it's really not a big deal, but it does require an adjustment of how people operate. I have used linking a lot and when I use it, I wait for the carrier to drop completely then key up, wait 3 seconds, then start talking. That's going to take some training and some adjustment for people who are just accustomed to keying up and being heard.

When you're rag chewing and making long transmissions anyway, if a word or two get clipped out, it's not a big deal but in a special event scenario when transmissions are brief to begin with, you might miss entire transmissions if people don't leave pauses.

Depending on what you use for linking, one nice thing is that if there is a "double" involving more than one repeater there's almost always a clear winner because only audio input stream will be allowed at a time.
I am familar with irlp or echolink, as its more a linking one location to another, this is one to 5 and I am learning what to expect.
IRLP and Echolink aren't just for linking one station to another. They can link many stations together.


Have you thought of using something like a mobile crossband repeater setup so that stations in the field can remain on the same frequency and only one person will need to change the channel on the crossband repeater to get into the appropriate repeater? What this might also enable you to do, aside from eliminating the confusion of when everyone is supposed to change channels, is maintain reliable comms in the repeater dead spots, as on the local side field stations will hear themselves on simplex. You won't have portable stations trying to get into repeaters but rather a mobile crossband repeater controlled by one person who is in constant contact with net control and can decide on the fly when to change repeaters without having to get everyone else in gear. That's always a PITA when you have to get everyone to switch repeaters at an event. You may not even need to use any outside repeaters if net control isn't far enough away that they can't hear the crossband repeater's output.
 

WA0CBW

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Remember that when you link 5 repeaters you also link ALL the users on those 5 repeaters. Some users may resent not being able to use "their" repeater while your event is taking place unless you don't mind having your net interrupted with a long winded conversation not pertaining to your net.
BB
 

nd5y

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IRLP and Echolink aren't just for linking one station to another. They can link many stations together.
IRLP does not support multiple connections, except for reflectors. In order to link more than two nodes, all of the nodes must connect to a reflector.
EchoLink is capable of multiple connections when configured properly.
 

khaytsus

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Thia is a Road Rally. High performance, run against the clock, reminds me of what moonshines did running the backroads many years ago. Its quite popular in Europe. We cover the 5 counties in a day, two days running. About 60 cars per stage, 8 stages a day,, First car completes he has a time to arrive at the second stage and shortly there after he is off on the second stage.Now the second stage might be on the same repeater and then it might get switched depending on the geographic area of the stage.A second repeater clear from the first has been the norm but this year with linking, it appears all stages will run on one effective frequency, because of linking. In an emergency, we usually move to another frequency for the emergency and net runs on , one another frequency, per the emergency plan. I just keep thinking what was, and what will not be around or available.

The statement in bold; you keep repeating this, but I'm not sure you know what you're meaning.... If YOU are stationary, then yes, you are talking to 5 repeaters via 1 repeater. But for the mobile stations or for other stations in other places, they will need to use the closest/most appropriate repeater for them.

So that means the mobile stations will need to have all 5 repeaters in their mobiles and know where and when to switch. And other control stations etc will need to know their closest repeater.

You say this is a race... Will there be a ham operator in each car? Otherwise, how are the mobile units going to do any communication, unless they're using something like FRS and ham operators will relay?
 

AK9R

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The event teufler is referring to is the Rally in the 100 Acre Wood. It is a performance rally where cars compete against the clock over a defined course using temporarily-closed public roads. The rally is broken into legs or stages. Each stage has a start point and an end point that are staffed with event officials who handle the timing, volunteers who handle the line up of the cars, and amateur radio operators who help with communications. These amateur radio operators are not riding in the competitor vehicles, but they do move about from stage to stage in their own vehicles.

The 100AW rally has a long history and takes place in the forests of south central Missouri. Performance rallying is popular in Europe, but not as popular in the U.S. and Canada.
 

jeatock

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Radio over IP works well and is becoming the standard in public safety systems. The issue with your idea is that that you are turning many repeaters into one really big system and folks won;t be used to it. A second may seem like an eternity, but it's worth the wait. Patience is a virtue, even over simplex. and imperative here. Stop, think about what you're going to say, key up, WAIT, then say it once slowly and clearly instead of threetimesrealquick. Get over it.

I built out a county wide analog public safety system set up the same way connecting three different repeaters. It's poor man's voting, but solid. Folks learn pretty quick to manually switch their radio to the tower with the best coverage for whenever they are, while dispatch stays on a single tower. There is a learning curve, but not a steep one. They hated it for maybe three days, and that was four year ago.

Latency is not a big issue. Most radios are on one tower and ignore the others, so they seldom hear the delay. I do check up on the system, and see latency between 0.2 and 0.4 seconds, using VE-PG3's, generic routers and PPTP VPN over public internet. I do have the routers connected to the same provider, so all WAN IP's are within their internal subnet. Not having the packets bouncing all over the 'cloud' helps considerably.

I'm sure there will be folks listening to multiple repeaters, and they're the ones who will complain about latency. Simple solution: tell them to ignore it.

I'll say this one more time: Correct procedure and net control is the hard part.

The inter-connection itself is much easier in comparison.
 

k8krh

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I saw a link internet to a repeater in ARIZONA, works very good it is on CQ100... and picks up more repeaters on it's link.
DOCTOR/795
 

Project25_MASTR

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Internet linking is pretty standard these days. Old RF systems (large such as the cactus intertie) also require a pause to allow all of the link repeater's to open up. Not just internet linking.

For future reference, a DMR system could actually be very effective in that situation. Several different conversations on a single 12.5 kHz wide channel.

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