No Call Signs anywhere on GMRS. :-O

OK, so I've been listening to my little Motorola walkie-talkies more often every since I've got my GMRS license (and now that I started to read the Ham Technician study materials), but I can tell that so far NO ONE, not a single person EVER announced their Call Signs on these higher channels from 15-22, which are designated to GMRS frequencies for licensed users only! NO ONE EVER!

The only exceptions are automated Repeaters that announce their ID and the Time Stamp, but that's it.

In the evening hours the waves get very busy! I can hear dozens of people talking all over these upper channels about pretty much everything and nothing, some sounded like experienced Ham guys discussing equipment, frequencies and such, a couple of them talking about using very powerful radios on GMRS frequencies, but NOBODY used or said their Call Signs EVER!

So I guess GMRS truly is a "free for all" kind of "pirate" frequency that the FCC doesn't care much about, otherwise these guys wouldn't feel very comfortable abusing it like this. Besides, who would take the time to actually hunt down a bunch of guys with their walkie-talkies or mobile car radios for real, then prosecute them for talking on an ignored part of the radio waves that is left there for super-amateurs? Nobody!

So I guess I'm one of the extremely few people who actually respects the rules and got a license for this service and identifies himself as it is required by the rules. But that's OK, I don't mind, only surprised a bit, that's all... :-/

There won't be any enforcement action if no one complains to the FCC.

If you hear violations, report them.

John
WPXJ-598
Peoria, AZ

Wouldn't even know how!

KB7MIB said:

There won't be any enforcement action if no one complains to the FCC.

If you hear violations, report them.

John
WPXJ-598
Peoria, AZ

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Sounds good, but quite frankly, what should an amateur newbie like myself do? Record their conversations? Does the FCC even have an audio/video upload option? Or just upload it to my YouTube channel as unlisted and send them a link? Submit some generic info that "bunch of people using and abusing the service but I haven't a clue who they are and where they are located" or something like this? They would be only laughing at such report!

I have neither the knowledge, no the equipment to pinpoint their locations. And by the way some talked, I'm sure they are very much experts in the radio fields, unlike me, so I'm afraid there isn't much I can do.

Maybe in a few months if I have the time to learn more about radios, but as of now, I'm a "noob"!

Unfortunately GMRS is a low priority on the FCC list unless it's causing interference to someone important.

jwilson2013 said:

Unfortunately GMRS is a low priority on the FCC list unless it's causing interference to someone important.

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That is my feeling as well, unfortunately!

It would be great if GMRS would be separated somehow from FRS and only licensed users would be allowed and able to use this service with their Call Signs, but that's just wishful thinking, not reality.

I'm just really surprised about how many people are talking on these upper GMRS channels without identification and probably, without a license. These guys will eventually overwhelm the frequencies and GMRS will become useless, IF, the FCC won't start enforcing its license requirement rules.

I'm NOT jealous or anything that they use GMRS free while I paid for the license, I only wish they stayed on the FRS channels as they should, or get their licenses and play by the rules. But they break the rules because they can. :-/

Or, maybe, the FCC will make the entire 22 channel "walkie-talkie spectrum" free eventually and force GMRS licensees to migrate to HAM, in order to separate themselves from the abusers? Who knows? I'm certainly no expert to tell, but common logic dictates the eventuality of the same pattern, just as it happens in society in so many different areas.

MrGClips said:

That is my feeling as well, unfortunately!

It would be great if GMRS would be separated somehow from FRS and only licensed users would be allowed and able to use this service with their Call Signs, but that's just wishful thinking, not reality.

I'm just really surprised about how many people are talking on these upper GMRS channels without identification and probably, without a license. These guys will eventually overwhelm the frequencies and GMRS will become useless, IF, the FCC won't start enforcing its license requirement rules.

I'm NOT jealous or anything that they use GMRS free while I paid for the license, I only wish they stayed on the FRS channels as they should, or get their licenses and play by the rules. But they break the rules because they can. :-/

Or, maybe, the FCC will make the entire 22 channel "walkie-talkie spectrum" free eventually and force GMRS licensees to migrate to HAM, in order to separate themselves from the abusers? Who knows? I'm certainly no expert to tell, but common logic dictates the eventuality of the same pattern, just as it happens in society in so many different areas.

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The problem with that is business can legally be conducted over GMRS where it can't over amateur radio. Most people don't actually qualify for Part 90 licenses so GMRS is the only option.

I don't like to have repeaters ID due to the way I understand the rules. It depends on where you are as to who ID's and who doesn't.

MrGClips said:

That is my feeling as well, unfortunately!

It would be great if GMRS would be separated somehow from FRS and only licensed users would be allowed and able to use this service with their Call Signs, but that's just wishful thinking, not reality.

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I've always felt the FCC really screwed up by combining an unlicensed service and a licensed service.

MrGClips said:

I'm just really surprised about how many people are talking on these upper GMRS channels without identification and probably, without a license. These guys will eventually overwhelm the frequencies and GMRS will become useless, IF, the FCC won't start enforcing its license requirement rules.

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This has been going on for over a decade now, it's nothing new. As soon FRS was released, the issues started. The upper 7 FRS channels are closely spaced with the GMRS repeater inputs. When an FRS radio was slightly off frequency and a GMRS repeater receiver was slightly off, it caused all kinds of issues for legal GMRS repeater owners.

The combined FRS/GMRS radios that came out soon after were a mess. The FCC allowing a radio to have combined licensed and unlicensed services created confusion. Manufacturer marketing made it worse. The mostly ignorant consumers didn't understand the difference or really care about the rules. Their idea was to plop some batteries in the radio and start talking. Retailers didn't help, either. GMRS/FRS radios were intermixed with FRS only radios. Why would an uneducated consumer purchase a "2 mile, 14 channel" FRS radio when they could get a "35 mile, 22 channel" FRS/GMRS radio? Many retailers didn't understand the difference and would just tell customers that there was no licenses required. Why sabotage sales by telling a customer that they'd need to apply for a license?
Thanks to the 27MHz CB mess, the consumer attitude was mostly "If I can buy it at the store (online, etc) then I really don't need a license".

MrGClips said:

I'm NOT jealous or anything that they use GMRS free while I paid for the license, I only wish they stayed on the FRS channels as they should, or get their licenses and play by the rules. But they break the rules because they can. :-/

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They break the rules because they don't know any better. Most of these consumers toss out the documentation that comes with the radio, never reading the fine print that says "FCC License Required".

This is a place where setting a CTCSS or DCS code will really benefit you. I held a GMRS license for about 15 years. I had mobiles, bases and hand held radios, even access to a high level repeater with my own tone. With a CTCSS tone set, I rarely had to deal with any issues.

MrGClips said:

Or, maybe, the FCC will make the entire 22 channel "walkie-talkie spectrum" free eventually and force GMRS licensees to migrate to HAM, in order to separate themselves from the abusers? Who knows? I'm certainly no expert to tell, but common logic dictates the eventuality of the same pattern, just as it happens in society in so many different areas.

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A few years back the FCC kicked off a plan to look at changing the part 97 rules. They took comments from the public and that was pretty much it. Whatever they were planning on either got dumped or is so jammed up in bureaucracy that it's been forgotten about.
There were all sorts of rumors, plans, assumptions, etc, but so far nothing from the FCC.

I think as long as people are paying for licenses and there isn't any real demands on enforcement, the FCC will just keep taking the money of the honest people and ignoring those that aren't.

Very busy? You must be in socal.
Unidentified transmissions are nothing new and they are also extremely common in the business band also.
It seems like the fcc doesnt have the staff to enforce every unidentified transmission nationwide. It would sort of like trying to penalize everyone who ever broke the speed limit.

Well, let's consider this from a different perspective.

Beyond the fact that according to FCC rules one must have a license to use GMRS frequencies at GMRS power levels, what benefit does having a license bring to the table?

- You get to spend $65 to be relieved that the FCC won't be sending you a Letter of Inquiry or Notice of Violation. Getting one these would seem to be extremely unlikely. I haven't been able to find evidence of either of those, let alone a Notice of Apparent Liability, being issued to someone simply operating without a license, with no criminal activity or interference to other services.
- Your call sign may make it easier to initiate a conversation with one of the other ~45,000 active licensees, if you manage to find one on the air. Based on my monitoring experiences, if that happens you can look forward to a long discussion about how the band is going to hell, and there's so many unlicensed folks using it.
- If you want access to one of the 900-odd repeaters, you will probably have to contact the owner to get the tone, and you'll probably be asked for a call sign. Same if you want to register at mygmrs.com to get repeater listings. If you have the _one_ bubble pack radio that does repeaters (Motorola 350 something or other) or one of the Chinese or business band radios. If you live in the shadow of a repeater, this could be very, very valuable.
- Anyone listening in will be able to use the FCC's ULS to look up your call sign and find out who you are and where you live. Some people find this disturbing.
- You get to put the call sign in your email/forum signature. Some people think this is cool.

Frankly, if you're looking to meet other people, make new contacts and enjoy communicating with radio, the ham bands are a better deal. Far more people to talk to (~600k licenses in the states alone), more readily available equipment, and way more technologies to explore. Getting licensed there has never been easier.

If you need a way to keep in touch with family and friends who will never take a ham test, then get some bubble pack radios and enjoy. When someone comes on and *****es about your not having a call sign, put the PL/DCS tone on. That's what it's for. You are in the company of millions of others.

If you're one of those folks who's tempted to spout FCC rules to people operating without using a call sign and tell them to get off the air, please consider an alternative. Maybe you should try to engage them, be helpful, show the benefit of a being a good radio citizen. If you get that far, maybe you can explain the benefit of repeaters, and why a call sign is a good idea. If you don't, or can't, or won't, then put the PL/DCS tone on - that's what it's for.

But while you're grinding your teeth listening to a husband and wife coordinate the parking of their camper, or whatever, consider that those people are actually using the spectrum for what it was intended for, even if they're not operating within the rules. They're the people keeping the radio companies in business, which keeps the spectrum available to us instead of, say, UPS's next driver tracking system or Amazon's drone control system.

If by "upper GMRS channels" you mean the ones in the 467 MHz portion, are you hearing the same users on the 462 MHz channels? GMRS is generally repeaterized. Perhaps the folks you're hearing are the licensees of those repeaters. They might believe they are in compliance because their repeaters announce their callsigns.

They are wrong, but at least they would have callsigns.

I would like to see GMRS narrow-banded in addition to being separated from FRS. Give more GMRS channels from the same spectrum. Not that I would ever hold my breath for that...

Most blame the manufactures for unlicensed use and combination radios. The mfr's make LOTS of money.

"If you're one of those folks who's tempted to spout FCC rules to people operating without using a call sign and tell them to get off the air, please consider an alternative. Maybe you should try to engage them, be helpful, show the benefit of a being a good radio citizen. If you get that far, maybe you can explain the benefit of repeaters, and why a call sign is a good idea. If you don't, or can't, or won't, then put the PL/DCS tone on - that's what it's for".


When I had my GMRS repeater on the air, there were no polite people. With the influx of the cheap Chinese radios, it's easy to program one up and screw around with the repeater. Adding CTCSS/DCS and changing the tones were no help. It's so easy to find out what they were and I got tired of reprogramming my radios. Thought about using MDC-1200 for access, but it was costly for the controller. Rather than deal with the crap, just pulled the plug on it cause complaining to the FCC of the malicious interference would be fruitless. I was very legal, my controller would ID CW every 15 minutes, transmitter was right on the nuts for frequency and power. Receiver was rock solid, no drifting, etc. It was the jerks screwing around with it. Do I miss using it?, you bet. Now I just rent time on a local LTR provider for just a few dollars per radio. It costs money, but don't have to put up with any crap and it has better range anyway.

baltimorecs said:

I would like to see GMRS narrow-banded in addition to being separated from FRS. Give more GMRS channels from the same spectrum. Not that I would ever hold my breath for that...

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Mandating it is never going to go over well though. If the commission would ever allow digital voice on GMRS, I think things would naturally migrate to narrow over the period of a decade or so.

It's the new CB.

K5BBC said:

It's the new CB.

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That and texting

That still has never stopped folks.
Currently we have a DMR user and P25 Users here in New England
Prior to P-25 coming around we had a few DVP/DES users as well :roll:

W5PKY said:

Mandating it is never going to go over well though. If the commission would ever allow digital voice on GMRS, I think things would naturally migrate to narrow over the period of a decade or so.

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Just use your call sign when you are on the air and let them come to the obvious conclusion that they should feel inferior all by themselves.

jwilson2013 said:

"If you're one of those folks who's tempted to spout FCC rules to people operating without using a call sign and tell them to get off the air, please consider an alternative. Maybe you should try to engage them, be helpful, show the benefit of a being a good radio citizen. If you get that far, maybe you can explain the benefit of repeaters, and why a call sign is a good idea...

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Communicating with an unlicensed station
by a licensed GMRS station is illegal, even
if your motives are honorable.

Break the law to give advice to a stranger who is breaking the law???
Not me.

MrGClips said:

so far NO ONE, not a single person EVER announced their Call Signs on these higher channels from 15-22, which are designated to GMRS frequencies for licensed users only!

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Are these unidentified transmissions going through repeaters? Are they causing interference? If so, it's up to the repeater operator to address these yahoos, certainly by warning them, by technical means, by DFing and by well documented request for enforcement action by FCC.

Not to say that it's easy. And it would be understandable if the repeater op unplugged and went home. Mobile radio enforcement is hard if the problem transmissions are intermittent and if the location is far from where FCC could travel due to budget restrictions. Language can be a barrier too.

As you may have read, FCC enforcement is being cut back a great deal except for pirate radio enforcement in NYC and Miami. There, the radio broadcasters are squeezing the FCC via Congress to can the pirates (but they only care about the FM pirates, not the shortwaves).

Back to GMRS...the GMRS repeater operator would have to do as much of the FCC's homework as possible. But that's always been the case for anyone who wants FCC to do anything.

If the unids are using direct only, not through repeaters, it would take someone who cares enough to find the sources and ask FCC for action. GMRS is handled by the Spectrum Enforcement Division of the Enforcement Bureau, but the complaint process starts here:

https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/articles/202653514-Unauthorized-Radio-Operation

It also helps to have your Congressperson write the FCC (copying you) and ask to be informed of the progress of your complaint. If your Congresscritter is on the House Commerce Committee, which oversees the FCC, so much the better. Congressional inquiries are handled in a separate FCC system than letters from joe blo and they are supposed to get answered promptly.

On the other hand the FCC will probably do a sort of informal cost/benefit on the response. If the complainant is a young person without much knowledge of the FCC, and doesn't seem to have any money or skin in the game, the FCC may reply with a vague letter that promises little or nothing. If the complainant is an adult / businessperson / family that is being interfered with, and if it looks like they are smart and pretty steamed, the FCC may have to move butt and come up with something lest they tick off someone in Congress.

The fact that licensees' contact information is publicly available protects the service. If you find out who is causing a problem, you can look them up and approach that person and discuss it, unless they are hostile and tell you where to go. But this is self-enforcement, a good thing. if the licensee is uncooperative, the FCC can get real interested in that.

Years ago the FCC hired an outside consulting firm to study the problem of licenses and enforcement in CB and GMRS. The consultants told them that people would not value a license that is easy to get, so they wouldn't get one or care if it was taken away. I read that report. The FCC ignored it as far as I know.

Contrast that with the Amateur Radio Service. Although the licenses have perhaps become easier to get over the last 20 years, most hams want the licenses and aren't too keen on disrupting the ham community.