Incident at Colo Springs high school uncovers radio problems

At the bottom of this post is a KRDO Channel-13 story about CSPD radio problems inside a local school. This is not new but is safety issue.

Last Friday we had some students report a girl come on campus with a handgun and TEU/SWAT eventually had to conduct a room to room search of the entire campus.

They soon found out their P25 800 MHz radios would not work in some areas inside the school and was an issue so they had to gather up and use a few Mitchell HS security handhelds (probably VHF conventional). That school is part of School District 11 which also uses P25 800 MHz radios and can switch to CSPD as well. So those radios were out and only the localized school radios worked (the ones the principal and asst principals use to communicate).

I have to say that CSPD did well with the situation from the beginning, since a CSPD area division (Falcon division) that does not cover that school had to come way out of their way to the school because Stetson Hills (which normally covers the school) had all available units trying to zero in on a stolen vehicle which the owner (who had left his keys inside) was also chasing down. Police have always had a difficult time finding a moving vehicle unless one of their own units is behind it already (due to time lag between caller to call taker to dispatcher to reporting party, even if it is OnStar). Their channel went to emergency radio comms only at about the time the school incident came in.

Also, the CSPD Sand Creek division (which has a border just a block or two to the south) was busy with several incidents and could only spare a traffic unit.

Police investigate radio problems during gun scare at Mitchell High School | Latest News - Home

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Colorado Springs School District 11

Colorado Springs School District 11 has a license on some UHF frequencies. Here are my logs, and I suspect Mitchell HS may be using 460.925 or 465.925 MHz:

WPJS443 CS SD 11

460.9250 88.5 Coronado High School

460.9250 94.8 Doherty High School

460.9250 100.0 Elementary school (West, Midland, Twain, Jackson, Hunt)

460.9250 107.2 Palmer High School

460.9250 114.8 Wasson High School

460.9250 D712 Galileo School Of Math And Science

*************************************************
460.9500 D205R “District 11 Security” “Main security channel”
*************************************************

465.9250 100.0 Holmes Middle School

465.9250 107.2 Jack Swigert Aerospace Academy

465.9250 114.8 Mann Middle School

465.9250 131.8 North Middle school

465.9250 141.3 Bijou School

465.9250 151.4 Jenkins Middle School

465.9250 162.2 West Middle School

Pages - District 11 Schools

Nice. Thanks for the info on the UHF radio freqs Mick!

I've only heard them on the P25 TG-4900. I'll have to check out those two or three UHF frequencies more.

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I saw that on TV as well. Doesn't the CSPD have an 800 simplex frequencey for that sorts of situation like CSFD appears to have as well as Colorado State I-TAC frequencies? With that, they set up a command center outside to deal with what's going on inside and then relay that to the dispatchers via regular communications,

Yes, but that would require twisting a knob with the understanding of how the radios work. I hear Fire Departments that have the same problem quite often. And that was back when it was just the difference between trying to hit the repeater instead of going direct. Modern day: Try to explain the difference between a Frequency and a Talkgroup... watch the eyes glaze over.

Both of you are correct.

I remember where I used to live and work. We has an 800 EDACS system where ALL mobile and portable radios had 4 channels programmed and marked as TA (talk-around) 1 thru 4. These simplex frequencies were NOT one of the regular system frequencies. One was assigned to an incident whether in or out of our county when we could not connect with our repeater(s) for whatever reason. They worked just fine within a mile or 2 radius, inside or outside of a building.

Adding bidirectional amplifiers to large buildings with poor coverage could be a solution, but nothing replaces solid radio training for dispatchers and units in the field. Even cell phone providers have a hell of a time getting 100% coverage with all the capital they have and employing things like Wi-Fi calling.

Far too many agencies in Colorado have dropped the ball on the topic of training, largely because it is optional or not being provided at all. Most of the time, it's made up of how to switch to several channels and pressing the button to talk. All too frequently you can hear agencies trying to switch to some magical other talkgroup in hopes that it will somehow be different from what they're currently using. Sometimes, they can even convince themselves into thinking that switching improved something.

Some examples of poor training comes from an area fire department I have been monitoring recently. I didn't used to think they did too bad until recent months when:

1) A company investigating a fire alarm inside a large structure used the primary repeater to contact another company a distance away and told them to switch to a simplex frequency to relay some building information. Surprising when the crew inside could hear the mobile radio of the other unit, but the other unit couldn't hear the portables from inside the structure. They ended up using the engineer at the rig to relay the message... who switched to the repeater which both sides can hear and talk on perfectly fine before switching back to the simplex to relay the response. I'm fairly sure the crews inside were able to hear the response without the relay. It was cited by the crews as "radio issues."

2) A structure fire response to another very large structure. Crews went inside using the simplex tactical. Command decided to switch things up and use the repeater. Surprising when Command completely lost the crew and was unable to communicate with them for an extended amount of time in a structure with poor reception. Luckily the incident wasn't much of anything, I'd hate to hear the results of a crew needing resources and not being heard for more than five minutes.

For an example of some agencies that does its training correctly: MetCom & South Metro Fire Rescue Authority. Most personnel have at least learned the difference in the channels that they have access to and when to use an operations channel (DTRS) vs. a fireground (simplex). If they run into bad communications in a structure or in a rural location, they request and switch to a fireground. They've been given some basics of a trunked radio system and have been told things like putting unnecessary load on the system if they try to monitor the incident that they are not involved in and things like how to handle busy tones on the system.MetCom figures out a solution if they're responding to aid someone else or someone else is coming to aid them. I believe South Metro even does radio testing when they do any pre-plan work on large structures so that the building can either get a BDA installed or they will use a fireground when operating at that structure.

The BDA option is fine for day to day ops, but not valid for a fire scenario. (Since power to the building is turned off, as soon as possible.)

The things listed in the previous posts are why I harp on using the 8-Tac frequencies for large & commercial structures, with using the rig radio for the outside portion. Whomever is talking with dispatch can do so with a handheld.

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Is this a new dtrs they utilize? Most swat, ert or tac teams will use simplex in high power, some having a mobile repeater if they have a swat command vehicle on hand that goes with them. Is those school hand helds your basic run of the mill uhf kenwood or moto? Pretty bad considering penny saving handhelds solved problem while a set of several thousand dollar portables didn't work. They could designate the outside ic officer to relay if needed the swat or tac traffic back to dispatch and keep the localized swat team on its simplex or conventional mobile repeater in the swat ic van or suv. Allot of areas use this method and relay method. If it isn't a new trs it'll kick the jump to upgrade to a new system and equipment with same gaps existing. Seen it million times. They could easily fix the problem.

krokus said:

The BDA option is fine for day to day ops, but not valid for a fire scenario. (Since power to the building is turned off, as soon as possible.)

The things listed in the previous posts are why I harp on using the 8-Tac frequencies for large & commercial structures, with using the rig radio for the outside portion. Whomever is talking with dispatch can do so with a handheld.

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You would think agencies would use the vtacs, utacs, 8tacs. Allot dont. Even if they were 800 they could use utacs or vtacs. Exactly. The ic officer outside can relay any traffic to dispatch if needed keeping the incident localized. I noticed allot of larger agencies have "tac" channels but they are the same as dispatch on a trs.

krokus said:

The BDA option is fine for day to day ops, but not valid for a fire scenario. (Since power to the building is turned off, as soon as possible.)

The things listed in the previous posts are why I harp on using the 8-Tac frequencies for large & commercial structures, with using the rig radio for the outside portion. Whomever is talking with dispatch can do so with a handheld.

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Not necessarily. Around here fire departments are requiring the BDA and DAS for Fire Life Safety purposes. I doubt they would require it, then cut the power to make it inoperable, it's for their safety. A hospital is an example of an occupancy that will not have the power cut quickly, if at all.

The problem we ran into with BDA's is different 800MHz Systems. We have 5 in the Denver Metro Area. When the fire department required the BDA be installed it was programed with the Control Channels for their site. Well two different facilities are in locations that have an 800 system different from the State DTRS. Which is fine for them but when the FD wants mutual aid from the guys across the street on for a fire or the PD wants help in an active shooter, and those guys are on the DTRS or FRCC system, guess what, those mutual aid guys' radios turn to bricks in the building. The BDA does not have the control channels programed for the DTRS or FRCC system.

With BDA's becoming more widespread, fire departments (those mandating the installation of BDA's) should really think about mutual aid needs when working with the building owner in designing their system. Interoperability is more than turning a knob on a radio, it has to start early.

The fire department I was with had certain buildings listed as Simplex buildings and it was aired on initial dispatch. This told that during testing during the inspection and pre-plan repeater channels did not work and the crews inside would be on a simplex channel for operations. This is done by many departments. Problem is whether or not they share that info with the PD boys and girls. Fire may know which buildings are good and bad but the poor PoPo's may not.

All BDAs have battery backup. They must report troubles and faults to the fire panel to be relayed to the monitoring agency. One fault that is reported is loss of power. Another is low battery voltage.

wtnfs said:

Not necessarily.

The problem we ran into with BDA's is different 800MHz Systems. We have 5 in the Denver Metro Area. When the fire department required the BDA be installed it was programed with the Control Channels for their site. Well two different facilities are in locations that have an 800 system different from the State DTRS. Which is fine for them but when the FD wants mutual aid from the guys across the street on for a fire or the PD wants help in an active shooter, and those guys are on the DTRS or FRCC system, guess what, those mutual aid guys' radios turn to bricks in the building. The BDA does not have the control channels programed for the DTRS or FRCC system.
.

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BDAs have no knowledge of control channels. They are setup to pass the entire public safety band on either 800, 700 or both. Ideally, the BDAs should also reject out of band transmissions such as cell. What may happen is that the donor antenna must be lined up on the site that users affiliate with. If it is set up on FRCC, it may be marginal or inoperable on DTRS since they are not on the same sites.
Craig

kc0kp said:

BDAs have no knowledge of control channels. They are setup to pass the entire public safety band on either 800, 700 or both. Ideally, the BDAs should also reject out of band transmissions such as cell. What may happen is that the donor antenna must be lined up on the site that users affiliate with. If it is set up on FRCC, it may be marginal or inoperable on DTRS since they are not on the same sites.
Craig

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Well, we had a few radio guys saying the same thing, it should just cover the band. We kept hearing the BDA's are "channelized" and then learned that there was a filter in each channel to limit the MHz spread for that channel. The BDA also only had a limited amount of channels in it. After weeks of time and dozens of emails we finally understood what was going on.

The DTRS radios just did not work in the facilities that had other FLS 800MHz systems (MARC, Westy, FRCC). You take a step outside the building and the DTRS radio works fine, step back in and it is a brick. The vendor needed the control channels for the sites we wanted to talk to programed into the BDA. Once they added the DTRS control channels, the DTRS radios worked building wide.

One facility has an omni antenna so it did not matter. The other had a Yagi and we ended up splitting the difference between Green Mountain (MARC) and Thorodin (DTRS) and that worked.

I wish it was as easy as it covers the band, but apparently some BDA's don't work that way. If the vendor told us the wrong info then I might be a little pissed.

kc0kp said:

BDAs have no knowledge of control channels. They are setup to pass the entire public safety band on either 800, 700 or both. Ideally, the BDAs should also reject out of band transmissions such as cell.

Click to expand...

There are two types of BDAs. Broadband BDAs ("class B") function as you describe.
Channelized BDAs ("class A") are programmed to only pass specific channels or ranges of channels. If it's not one of those programmed channels, it is not repeated.

Look at http://www.napco.org/Resources/M108-Daniel.pdf for a good BDA overview.

Thunderknight said:

There are two types of BDAs. Broadband BDAs ("class B") function as you describe.
Channelized BDAs ("class A") are programmed to only pass specific channels or ranges of channels. If it's not one of those programmed channels, it is not repeated.

Look at http://www.napco.org/Resources/M108-Daniel.pdf for a good BDA overview.

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Dude, that presentation probably would have saved me days of frustration. Thanks for posting it, it helps with even more things moving forward.