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The 8000 dollar Motorola HT/s. Why?
- Thread starter prc117f
- Start date
- Status
You do realize that Motorola sells more than just the APX 8000?
They have the no frills APX 1000 at a decent price.
Your complaint is the same as saying "Why does Lamborghini sell the Aventador It makes no sense. What exactly does it do that makes it worth $400,000?" when there are many lower cost choices like Ford, Dodge, Chevy, etc.
Marshall KE4ZNR
Last edited:
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
Because that is what the intended market (public safety) is willing to pay.
What does an $8000 radio do?
All public safety bands in one radio. WiFi and LTE for radio management and (future) P25 over WiFi/LTE, rugged for mission critical use. Those are the key benefits of such a high tier product.
Do I think it's worth $8000 personally? No, out of my price range. But professionally speaking, this product has been one that has been asked for by the customers for a decade or more. But I don't see it on every officer's duty belt or fireman's turnout gear at that price (and it isn't a fire radio anyway).
As Marshall has said, they have other products at lower price points, and the APX8000 can be ordered single band only without all the advanced features enabled out the door for much much less. Again, these aren't hobby toy radios. These are tools for professionals. Professional tools come at professional prices.
What does an $8000 radio do?
All public safety bands in one radio. WiFi and LTE for radio management and (future) P25 over WiFi/LTE, rugged for mission critical use. Those are the key benefits of such a high tier product.
Do I think it's worth $8000 personally? No, out of my price range. But professionally speaking, this product has been one that has been asked for by the customers for a decade or more. But I don't see it on every officer's duty belt or fireman's turnout gear at that price (and it isn't a fire radio anyway).
As Marshall has said, they have other products at lower price points, and the APX8000 can be ordered single band only without all the advanced features enabled out the door for much much less. Again, these aren't hobby toy radios. These are tools for professionals. Professional tools come at professional prices.
phillydjdan
Member
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2011
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- 2,075
Putting on my fortune tellers cap...I see this getting derailed quickly and locked.
+1 on that one...
Other people's money. That's why.
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
It's not that it's $8,000 (I actually know someone who just finished ordering one and it came out to $12,000 with all the options) but that it's a top of the line public safety handheld.
Look at it this way, in 1970 a Motorola Mocom-70 (8 channel, 100W) went for about $850…adjust for inflation and you get ~$4900 today (which is about $1900 more than a high power single band Apex mobile) which also proves technology has in fact gotten cheaper.
Nothing fishy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Look at it this way, in 1970 a Motorola Mocom-70 (8 channel, 100W) went for about $850…adjust for inflation and you get ~$4900 today (which is about $1900 more than a high power single band Apex mobile) which also proves technology has in fact gotten cheaper.
Nothing fishy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yea but look at the contrast in maturity of technology.
It sounds like the 1200 dollar NSN hammer for the DoD procurement.
I am not talking about hobby. But these are mass produced radios and I find it hard to believe that it costs 8K for what they do. Professional does not mean ripoff prices. I suspect the reason they sell for 8K is because there is a close knit situation between taxpayer funded entities and big politics, single source etc..
These are mass produced products 8K is insane, its not an NSA Type 1 special FH tactical handheld. I would question any county agency buying a truck load of 8K radios.
gtaman
Member
Crying about a Moto? Try buying a Thales or Harris tactical radio.
in 1992 a Cray C-90 system that did a couple of gigaflops cost several millions and had special power requirements.
Today for less than 600 dollars you get a computer iphone 6 that outperforms it and you can stick it in your pocket. Not only that but provide internet access and voice transmit capability as you travel through cells.
Like I said, something fishy. ie 1000 dollar hammer.
for 8-12K I hope they are at least manufactured in the USA.
W8RMH
Feed Provider Since 2012
Most of that cost goes toward R & D.
phillydjdan
Member
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2011
- Messages
- 2,075
No, it goes in pockets...
If I need a hammer that has been tested and certified for a deep space environment or for use on the surface of the moon without breaking, shattering or failing in some manner that mangles my astronaut, you can bet I am willing to pay that much, and it will have a known shelf life included.
If I want a radio where development has included destructive and dynamic testing of ALL components to failure, salt water immersion, physical torture, ergonomic design, intrinsic safety and extreme RF environment cyclic over hundreds of life cycles, then $8k for that type of radio seems OK to me. It is NOT a single or dual layer photocopy of someone else's tech, thrown together with the absolutely cheapest components available by forced labor in some Chinese board mill for pennies an hour, without the benefit of testing. For that, I will buy a Wang Chung.
If I want a radio where development has included destructive and dynamic testing of ALL components to failure, salt water immersion, physical torture, ergonomic design, intrinsic safety and extreme RF environment cyclic over hundreds of life cycles, then $8k for that type of radio seems OK to me. It is NOT a single or dual layer photocopy of someone else's tech, thrown together with the absolutely cheapest components available by forced labor in some Chinese board mill for pennies an hour, without the benefit of testing. For that, I will buy a Wang Chung.
I believe it's aimed at the interoperability market. Those large agencies that are more likely to have the advanced facilities and might have to go to another jurisdiction, for instance. They'll be able to program radios to work with other agencies.
After Katrina, Columbus (GA) Fire & EMS and Police went Pearl County, MS. We worked with other agencies from Georgia and Florida. We streamlined our operations by using a Raytheon ACU-1000 to interconnect radios from the different agencies. The Motorola radio would provide portability to perform a similar function and allow the Communication Unit and Command Staff to have ready access to the various agencies with various radios who are working in concert.
We now also have some Thales portable radios that span a large part of the spectrum. They're programmable and cost about $7500 each, if I remember correctly.
After Katrina, Columbus (GA) Fire & EMS and Police went Pearl County, MS. We worked with other agencies from Georgia and Florida. We streamlined our operations by using a Raytheon ACU-1000 to interconnect radios from the different agencies. The Motorola radio would provide portability to perform a similar function and allow the Communication Unit and Command Staff to have ready access to the various agencies with various radios who are working in concert.
We now also have some Thales portable radios that span a large part of the spectrum. They're programmable and cost about $7500 each, if I remember correctly.
Actually, if you load it up, it is. Mass produced, yes, but given the price tag I would not say in the quantities that you insinuated with the statement. It is not a high profit item for Motorola, but it is a mission specific/mission critical radio, and if your agency has a need for it, it is well worth the price. Not everyone has the need, and not everyone is buying these radios.
JPSan
Member
Sort of involved if you look at it, realistically
Lets see what goes into making a really expensive radio. Just a quickie simplistic run down.
R&D ( research and development - proving concept - circuit board design, layout, case durability and IS factors, etc.) TIME & MONEY ditto for the rest.
Prototyping - proving circuit board layout and all electronics play nice in the form factor (case design) and firmware / software enhancements required for the new hardware set.
Testing & more testing - A number of engineering units are lab tested in lab and in the field to see what hardware, firmware and software faults, bugs, etc rear there heads.And the repeated trouble tickets of issues are attacked by the engineers.
Revisions - see Number 3 and repeat as necessary. The more complex the hardware/firmware/software this can and will happen a lot.And a lot more once in the field and new user bugs come to light.
GOLDEN - Everything in the lab & from field testings seems to work and play well and stable and all is sort of locked in.
Manuals - service manuals - user manuals and all other product guides, sales brochures are designed and set.
FCC - production radios sent to FCC for all necessary certifications.
Pre Sales - Units shown & demoed to customers
Production - All manufacturing sites are set up, all electronic components brought in for the circuit board assembly and all other items for production start up.
Assembly and QC - this should be self explanatory.
Packaging & Shipping. - Takes warehousing, people and time
This all doesn’t happen overnight. ( yes, there is a great big book of radios that they pick and choose and bang, zoom instant overpriced radio)
Many months or a year, maybe more.
A whole lot of people are involved in house and out. A lot time ( MONEY). Deadlines. All specialty electronic components whether designed for the specific unit or off the shelf have to be procured or ordered.
Coders to write, debug, revise firmware/software. ( TIME & MONEY)
Then you have the overhead for the manufacturing sites and equipment and support personnel ( wages and all that goes with that process).
Motorola isn’t making a cheap, minimalist HT like the Chinese slap it together with the cheapest components and put anyone's name on the case. I wouldn't trust any of those cheap plastic toys ( yes, the designs on all these radios look like Fisher Price designed them, ever see a Moto, Harris with a flashlight? FM stereo headphone output?) in a heavy mission intensive environment like SAR, fires, chemical spills, battlefields, SWAT operations, on the waterways, temperature extremes, drops, vehicles running em over and more. ALL radios have there faults. But I have used Motorola in a few very intense situations in my life and it never, ever let me down. I sure as hell would never rely on anything else. YMMV.
The EXPENSIVE, High quality, highly durable, highly reliable feature rich radios that are DESIGNED for Public Safety, Military and other operations that require the best period and get what they pay for, whether it’s Moto, Harris or whoever.
The prices are steep, yes, BUT they AREN’T DESIGNED for HOBBYIST, the HAM though I have known hams who bought new System Sabers, Astro Sabers and the APX’s just because they wanted them and had cash burning a hole in the pocket. A status symbol to show off, bragging rights and a manhood extender.
Personally, I think the APX portables are just plug ugly to my eye.
Any organization can buy whatever they want, afford. Yes, Moto is and can be intense selling its stuff. Been there and seen that first hand. If you want a quality piece of kit, you go with field and time tested manufacturer. Someone who can locally support the equipment. Someone who is in this country. Motorola, Harris and others aren't a non profit operation. Sorry, there a money making operation that has bills, property and other taxes, properties and its upkeep many, many employees, state of the art testing and manufacturing equipt, insurance and more.
Maybe LAPD / NYPD/ Chicago, etc should by BaoFeng or whatever 50$ radios and a boatload of toy mic’s and 3$ rapid chargers to save money, screw officer safety, there just a radio it dies just throw it away, especially like in a foot pursuit. Just carry a few extra on your belt. Problem solved cheap and efficient!.
Lets see what goes into making a really expensive radio. Just a quickie simplistic run down.
R&D ( research and development - proving concept - circuit board design, layout, case durability and IS factors, etc.) TIME & MONEY ditto for the rest.
Prototyping - proving circuit board layout and all electronics play nice in the form factor (case design) and firmware / software enhancements required for the new hardware set.
Testing & more testing - A number of engineering units are lab tested in lab and in the field to see what hardware, firmware and software faults, bugs, etc rear there heads.And the repeated trouble tickets of issues are attacked by the engineers.
Revisions - see Number 3 and repeat as necessary. The more complex the hardware/firmware/software this can and will happen a lot.And a lot more once in the field and new user bugs come to light.
GOLDEN - Everything in the lab & from field testings seems to work and play well and stable and all is sort of locked in.
Manuals - service manuals - user manuals and all other product guides, sales brochures are designed and set.
FCC - production radios sent to FCC for all necessary certifications.
Pre Sales - Units shown & demoed to customers
Production - All manufacturing sites are set up, all electronic components brought in for the circuit board assembly and all other items for production start up.
Assembly and QC - this should be self explanatory.
Packaging & Shipping. - Takes warehousing, people and time
This all doesn’t happen overnight. ( yes, there is a great big book of radios that they pick and choose and bang, zoom instant overpriced radio)
Many months or a year, maybe more.
A whole lot of people are involved in house and out. A lot time ( MONEY). Deadlines. All specialty electronic components whether designed for the specific unit or off the shelf have to be procured or ordered.
Coders to write, debug, revise firmware/software. ( TIME & MONEY)
Then you have the overhead for the manufacturing sites and equipment and support personnel ( wages and all that goes with that process).
Motorola isn’t making a cheap, minimalist HT like the Chinese slap it together with the cheapest components and put anyone's name on the case. I wouldn't trust any of those cheap plastic toys ( yes, the designs on all these radios look like Fisher Price designed them, ever see a Moto, Harris with a flashlight? FM stereo headphone output?) in a heavy mission intensive environment like SAR, fires, chemical spills, battlefields, SWAT operations, on the waterways, temperature extremes, drops, vehicles running em over and more. ALL radios have there faults. But I have used Motorola in a few very intense situations in my life and it never, ever let me down. I sure as hell would never rely on anything else. YMMV.
The EXPENSIVE, High quality, highly durable, highly reliable feature rich radios that are DESIGNED for Public Safety, Military and other operations that require the best period and get what they pay for, whether it’s Moto, Harris or whoever.
The prices are steep, yes, BUT they AREN’T DESIGNED for HOBBYIST, the HAM though I have known hams who bought new System Sabers, Astro Sabers and the APX’s just because they wanted them and had cash burning a hole in the pocket. A status symbol to show off, bragging rights and a manhood extender.
Personally, I think the APX portables are just plug ugly to my eye.
Any organization can buy whatever they want, afford. Yes, Moto is and can be intense selling its stuff. Been there and seen that first hand. If you want a quality piece of kit, you go with field and time tested manufacturer. Someone who can locally support the equipment. Someone who is in this country. Motorola, Harris and others aren't a non profit operation. Sorry, there a money making operation that has bills, property and other taxes, properties and its upkeep many, many employees, state of the art testing and manufacturing equipt, insurance and more.
Maybe LAPD / NYPD/ Chicago, etc should by BaoFeng or whatever 50$ radios and a boatload of toy mic’s and 3$ rapid chargers to save money, screw officer safety, there just a radio it dies just throw it away, especially like in a foot pursuit. Just carry a few extra on your belt. Problem solved cheap and efficient!.
I know professional photographers who have no problem dumping six grand into a new DSLR camera and spending tens of thousands of dollars on lenses. None of which are in any way going to survive the mil-spec 810 standard testing!
8000 dollars isn't really a heck of a lot of money for an all-band communications device that at times becomes critical to safety of life. As long as it works when you need it to.
The money tied up in an APX7000 or 8000 isn't in the hardware, it's in the enormous amount of effort that went into design, development, testing, troubleshooting, reworking and software development for it to make it work reliably enough to be qualified for mission critical/life dependent operations.
The hardware itself is really not worth all that much. It's the engineering.
With the NRE's handled, (Non-Recurring Expenses, engineering and developmental time) it probably costs just a couple hundred bucks to make an 8000. But if Moto tried to sell them on a cost plus 500 dollar per unit basis, they'd be in chapter 7 faster than you could blink.
8000 dollars isn't really a heck of a lot of money for an all-band communications device that at times becomes critical to safety of life. As long as it works when you need it to.
The money tied up in an APX7000 or 8000 isn't in the hardware, it's in the enormous amount of effort that went into design, development, testing, troubleshooting, reworking and software development for it to make it work reliably enough to be qualified for mission critical/life dependent operations.
The hardware itself is really not worth all that much. It's the engineering.
With the NRE's handled, (Non-Recurring Expenses, engineering and developmental time) it probably costs just a couple hundred bucks to make an 8000. But if Moto tried to sell them on a cost plus 500 dollar per unit basis, they'd be in chapter 7 faster than you could blink.
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
Comparing a consumer grade product to an actual ruggedized product is two completely different things.
What does an iPhone do in it's most basic form? Send and receive data.
What does a two way radio do in it's most basic form? Send and receive data.
iPhones cost roughly $850 new and have a useful life of 2 years. PS grade radios have useful life of about 10 years.
iPhones don't take handle dihydrogen monoxide well...PS radios usually do okay.
Components on iPhones tend to break when dropped from belt level...not PS radios.
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