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Difference between wide vs narrowband
- Thread starter sam55671
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N4KVE
Member
Wide = 5 khz tx deviation.
Narrow = 2.5 khz tx deviation.
Narrow = 2.5 khz tx deviation.
ecps92
Member
Beside the answers already given, if using an OLDER Scanner
you had WFM and NFM - WIDE was generally used for TV and FM (Commercial Radio)
The older Scanners would use NFM for Police/Fire etc and is what RR considers FM and the RR NFM is the FCC Narrowbanding requirement which is what the other replies were referencing
you had WFM and NFM - WIDE was generally used for TV and FM (Commercial Radio)
The older Scanners would use NFM for Police/Fire etc and is what RR considers FM and the RR NFM is the FCC Narrowbanding requirement which is what the other replies were referencing
With narrowband channels, twice as many voice channels can be fit into a specific range of frequencies. But it only works right if all the radios in use on adjacent frequencies have the proper filters in them to keep them from hearing traffic on the adjacent frequencies.
To expand on this, they produce different channel bandwidths that create different step sizes between channels.
5 khz deviation produces a modulated transmission that fits inside a 25 khz wide channel area, while 2.5 khz deviation produces a transmission that fits a 12.5 khz channel. Thus, wideband requires 25 khz steps between channel center frequencies (to avoid covering and being covered by half of someone else's adjacent frequency), and narrowband only 12.5. This is why the FCC has been pushing narrowbanding mandates- it doubles the available spectrum channels once everybody gets it done.
VE1GAT
Secular Humanist, goodness without godness
actually there is a misconception in describing the difference.
Wide = 5 khz tx deviation.
Narrow = 2.5 khz tx deviation.
Deviation is not the same as bandwidth.
Without getting technical... roughly
Depending on your radio, wide maybe 25khz or 30khz
and narrow maybe 15khz 12.5khz or even lower.
Deviation is how far from exact frequency you can stray without loosing signal and causing interference.
eg
146.52Mhz using wide band can stray +-2.5khz
146.52Mhz using narrowband can stray +-1.25khz
for bandwidth types picture a plot of a small radio spectrum with a wizards hat peak on the exact frequency and narrow band is a skinny hat (unlikely to interfere with frequencies nearby but harder to match exactly with others if they are off frequency a little) and wide band is a fatter hat (easier to talk with others if there is a deviation between the radio's frequencies but more likely to splatter onto adjacent frequencies)
Both have their own advantages.
and wide FM isn't really wide, commercial FM radio is 200kHz which allows much more information to be used.
have a look at a listening site
WebSDR & Radio | VK3LP In Melbourne Australia
Wide = 5 khz tx deviation.
Narrow = 2.5 khz tx deviation.
Deviation is not the same as bandwidth.
Without getting technical... roughly
Depending on your radio, wide maybe 25khz or 30khz
and narrow maybe 15khz 12.5khz or even lower.
Deviation is how far from exact frequency you can stray without loosing signal and causing interference.
eg
146.52Mhz using wide band can stray +-2.5khz
146.52Mhz using narrowband can stray +-1.25khz
for bandwidth types picture a plot of a small radio spectrum with a wizards hat peak on the exact frequency and narrow band is a skinny hat (unlikely to interfere with frequencies nearby but harder to match exactly with others if they are off frequency a little) and wide band is a fatter hat (easier to talk with others if there is a deviation between the radio's frequencies but more likely to splatter onto adjacent frequencies)
Both have their own advantages.
and wide FM isn't really wide, commercial FM radio is 200kHz which allows much more information to be used.
have a look at a listening site
WebSDR & Radio | VK3LP In Melbourne Australia
N4KVE
Member
Back in the early 60's, wide was 15 khz, & narrow was 5 khz. Anyone remember that narrow band switch?
Rat Shack Pro -3
http://www.rigpix.com/rs-realistic/realistic_pro3.jpg
(Thank you RigPix)
I still have one that has that selection! Steve
http://www.rigpix.com/rs-realistic/realistic_pro3.jpg
(Thank you RigPix)
I still have one that has that selection! Steve
Double those figures. +/- 5.0 for Wide (NBFM) and +/- 2.5 for Narrow (SNFM). And actually the carrier can stray that much PLUS the MMF, or +/- 8 kHz for NBFM which gives a total occupied bandwidth of 16.0 kHz.
Also, almost all Wide (NBFM) radios are using 16.0 kHz bandwidth. To determine the bandwidth, use the formula BW=(2*DEV)+(2*MMF) where DEV is the deviation and MMF is the Maximum Modulating Frequency.
For NBFM, that is BW=(2*5.0)+(2*3.0), or 10+6 = 16 kHz bandwidth.
For SNFM that would be BW=(2*2.5)+(2*3.0), or 5+6 = 11 kHz bandwidth.
bill4long
Member
Voyager is correct.
The 25 Khz channelization that Land Mobile (Commercial, Public Service, etc) previously used was excessively wasteful. It was specified decades ago when spectrum crowding was not an issue. A whopping 36% was simply wasted since only 16 Khz of each channel was actually used.
These days 11 KHz narrowband technologies work just as well (with companding etc.) The 12.5 Khz channelization results in only 12% "waste." And this is just for analog. With digital you can cut it in half again since you can get by with 6.25 Khz channels and less.
The 25 Khz channelization that Land Mobile (Commercial, Public Service, etc) previously used was excessively wasteful. It was specified decades ago when spectrum crowding was not an issue. A whopping 36% was simply wasted since only 16 Khz of each channel was actually used.
These days 11 KHz narrowband technologies work just as well (with companding etc.) The 12.5 Khz channelization results in only 12% "waste." And this is just for analog. With digital you can cut it in half again since you can get by with 6.25 Khz channels and less.
I remember when....
Yep, changed out a few permakays and whatever GE called their IF filter. Not to mention pre-emphasis chokes and caps.
Yep, changed out a few permakays and whatever GE called their IF filter. Not to mention pre-emphasis chokes and caps.
This is Carson's Rule.
Except that in the VHF business and public safety bands, the channelization was 15 kHz, not 25 kHz. The result was that with a +/- 5 kHz deviation signal (16 kHz bandwidth), there would be some overlap if you tried to use adjacent channels without sufficient geographic separation. The FCC narrowband mandate cut the VHF channelization to 7.5 kHz which means there's even more possibility of adjacent channel overlap between +/- 2.5 kHz deviation signals (11 kHz bandwidth).
Even in amateur radio, many areas of the U.S. use a 15 kHz channel spacing on VHF between 146.0 and 148.0 MHz. The radios are all set for +/- 5 kHz deviation, so you end up with some overlap if the frequency coordinators aren't paying attention.
More than once in the last several years as a full-time radio technician, the question of accuracy of measurement of modulation came up and getting the right answer was pretty important for a particular application we were working on.
I ended up generating reference modulation signals using the Bessel Null function, employing precision audio and RF signal generators, (with the PC being the precision audio generator, with appropriate software), and then adjusting for the appropriate Bessel Null indications. Then I had a true "reference grade" modulated signal to use and see how the other equipment on the bench interpreted that signal.
It was both fun and a royal pain at the same time. But it gave me a great insight as to how modulation actually works. (deviation, actually, is the proper term, as modulation applies to AM signals and deviation applies to FM and other constant level signals such as phase modulation and various forms of phase shift keying.)
Actually making high resolution spectrum measurements of the modulated signal (0.1 Hz resolution) at various input audio deviation levels and frequencies led to some fascinating insights in how it all works. I'm not going to say I fully comprehend the math involved, though.
I realize this is a bit above the intent of this topic, but the science of RF is absolutely fascinating. The very idea that you can feed a small amount of electricity into a simple cicruit composed of capacitors, inductors, resistors, and a transistor or two and then be able to use a complementary circuit to receive that signal from many miles away is still, to me, magic. Magic that can be explained scientifically, but darn it, it's still magical. Science IS magic. At least until you fully understand it.
I ended up generating reference modulation signals using the Bessel Null function, employing precision audio and RF signal generators, (with the PC being the precision audio generator, with appropriate software), and then adjusting for the appropriate Bessel Null indications. Then I had a true "reference grade" modulated signal to use and see how the other equipment on the bench interpreted that signal.
It was both fun and a royal pain at the same time. But it gave me a great insight as to how modulation actually works. (deviation, actually, is the proper term, as modulation applies to AM signals and deviation applies to FM and other constant level signals such as phase modulation and various forms of phase shift keying.)
Actually making high resolution spectrum measurements of the modulated signal (0.1 Hz resolution) at various input audio deviation levels and frequencies led to some fascinating insights in how it all works. I'm not going to say I fully comprehend the math involved, though.
I realize this is a bit above the intent of this topic, but the science of RF is absolutely fascinating. The very idea that you can feed a small amount of electricity into a simple cicruit composed of capacitors, inductors, resistors, and a transistor or two and then be able to use a complementary circuit to receive that signal from many miles away is still, to me, magic. Magic that can be explained scientifically, but darn it, it's still magical. Science IS magic. At least until you fully understand it.
bill4long
Member
Right. I was primarily thinking of UHF.
I never upgraded any personally, but I recall working on many that had a yellow sticker "Adjusted to Narrowband +/- 5 kHz".
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